Despite the many disadvantages resulting from the conflation of Color Accentuation (global Saturation and Vibrancy settings) into the global HSL tool (as detailed here) … at least PLv7 did not undo global Saturation and Vibrancy settings when the HSL tool was reset … but, with PLv7.01, it now does.
That is; with PLv7
Clicking on the global HSL tool’s Reset button - resulted only in settings for the hue-specific channels being reset to their defaults
But now, with the PLv7.01 minor update
Clicking on the global HSL tool’s Reset button - causes ALL settings (now) associated with global HSL to be reset - - including global Saturation & Vibrancy settings (which really have nothing to do with HSL settings).
Implications:
How are new & novice users supposed to know & understand the implications of using the global HSL tool’s Reset button ?
This change effectively makes the Reset tool redundant (or, at worst, dangerous) - because it now has implications beyond the simple resetting of hue-specific channel settings.
Here’s an example, from prior to the minor update to PLv7.01;
Before clicking on the PLv7 Reset button (on RHS) … includes changes to the “Cyan” channel
After clicking on the PLv7 Reset button (on RHS) … correctly resets ONLY the “Cyan” channel
Global Sat & Vib settings are left unchanged … thereby correctly preserving settings unrelated to HSL settings.
This is no longer the case with PLv7.01 … as shown here (in testing with PLv7.01 by @bhayt);
Had never noticed this pattern before while testing, but DPL 7.0.0.30, which was RC3 and is now the prod. release on Mac does it too.
The annoying part imo is, that saturation and vibrancy can be part of a preset and that resetting HSL therefore resets the preset-specific setting to 0/0. Pity for “Committed to Colour”.
No - this was not the behaviour in the EA RC version that we tested (which left the global Sat & Vib settings unchanged when the HSL tool was reset) … this change (I’m calling it a bug!) was introduced in later “minor updates”
@platypus i.e. there was a change between the last Test release and the final release and I cannot discuss the beta test in an open forum so I cannot suggest that there were not a lot of sunrises between the two events.
I must apologise @John-M for not getting more involved during the Testing but I do not consider myself particularly proficient with editing elements like HSL, i.e. I am an “amateur” among experts when it comes to issues of colour adjustment and rendering.
But I am well able to devise tests to stretch the product and break it either deliberately or, more often, by “accident”!
There was probably enough I could have done along the lines of the work I just did on PL7.0.0 and then PL7.0.1 that might have helped pile additional pressure on DxO with respect to their decision to deprecate ‘Color Accentuation’ in favour of incorporating it into HSL.
I am not convinced that there is sufficient compatibility between the old CA settings and the replacement HSL settings but would need to do more testing to convince myself one way or another. Arguably that only needs to be a one way compatibility, PL6 → PL7, since PL6 will not accept PL7 DOPs, i.e. edits in PL7 stay in PL7.
But getting DxO to change direction is not the easiest of tasks although I believe they may have adjusted certain things after protests from a vocal group of expert Test users DxO respect, so it is possible!???
However, this particular issue would not have been picked up because the product was changed after Testing!
Now back to the real world, cleaning soffits, gutters, cleaning and repairing failing paintwork and wood. i.e. finding and fixing “bugs” but at least I can something about fixing the faults, for as long as the weather holds!
@John-M Just got the bucket out to continue cleaning and it occurred to me how appalling the situation is.
In PL6 the user could use CA and the colour channel options of HSL and disable the colour channel but leave the CA setting intact or vice versa, and by disable I mean use the button while leaving the settings intact.
When I was attempting to design Partial Presets to experiment with HSL I was struck by the fact that there is no way of toggling individual colours, i.e. where the setting remains intact but the channel is toggled on/off to explore the impact.
That capability has never existed and currently can’t exist because the Preset has no “true”/“false” settings except for the whole HSL command.
But now the “true”/“false” setting controls both the Colour channels and the “Master” channel which is the “replacement” for Global CA settings.
So it is all or nothing, DxO have removed a level of granularity that some may have been using as part of their editing workflow!
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point - but, to be fair; there IS a way to toggle actuation of different hues (in the HSL tool) … BUT, it has limitations that do NOT replace the pre-PLv7 Color Accentuation tool.
@John-M The feature you show does provide the ability to Toggle a single channel off with this new feature and is certainly worth having but I would like the ability to toggle multiple colour channels off, including the Master (White) channel and for that state to be maintained in the DOP.
What is on offer is better than nothing but why not include the toggle in the single press of the icon.
i.e.
Single press goes from On to off or off to on as appropriate with the setting left intact.
Double press, clear that setting entirely. But to be honest just turning an option off and leaving the setting value intact actually achieves much the same thing. With the option cleared the next time you have to move from 0 to whatever value you want, leaving a setting intact means you start from that point and adjust up or down a little or a lot.
Why do DxO miss these uses of the features on offer?
Why is there no individual toggle for each element in the lovely (to me anyway) new Local Adjustments commands? Why leave it out?
Incidentally I personally would have provided a toggle between the old interface and the new but then I don’t have to code it !
But they do seem way too keen to throw away features where the coding already exists @Musashi
@John-M I was collecting snapshots to mock-up what I mentioned in the previous post and fiddled with the red channel and double clicked to turn it off and selected the Orange channel and double clicked(?) the reset and wound up with this
But the value in the Master(White) channel was Sat = 100, Vib = 10 and the other colour channels were Sat = 100 and after the double click the Master channel had Sat = -9 and Vib = 10!?
Where did the -9 come from? This was a test of carrying over settings from the PL6.10 so some more investigation is required to see if I can account from where the Sat = -9 comes from!
The Saturation = -9 appears to exists for all the copies of the image {M], … [5] and the test was done on [5] so the DOP (PL 7.0.1 ) has the following
PPS:- There is something wrong with this discovery which survived a restart!? But I installed a trial of PL7 and PhotoLab 7 to see the Luminosity mask in action but this feature doesn’t seem to work on that machine!?
But it does with the same image, same VC and same DOP across the LAN.
A feature accidentally located that is actually a bug!!
PPS Extra:- The second machine now seems to be working exactly as shown above so I need to run the tests from scratch again with new images and new directories and see what happens?
That was an excellent (accidental ?) discovery, Bryan !
Yes, I can confirm this; Double-clicking the HSL’s “Reset” button (this one: ) will undo settings for all hues - whilst leaving the master/white channel unchanged … which is handy to know.
However … This behaviour is possibly deemed (by DxO) to be a bug (as was the original behaviour for a single-click) … So, Shhhhhhh … Don’t tell 'em !
@John-M It was accidental because I instinctively double clicked instead of single clicked, as simple as that!
Many of the things I discover result from following a testing path but then realising that I forgot to take a snapshot or needed another step in the test process and try to backtrack and up pops something unexpected
However, it “appears” to work for one image but returns the '“Master” channel to the same settings regardless of the setting of the “Master” channel when the double click is executed!?
So (yet another test)
New Test directory containing only the images (no DOPs, no xmp sidecars - nothing else)
Navigated to the directory in PL7.01 and selected an image
Got a surprise!?
These are the ‘Preference’ settings
5 This is the image after opening in PL7.01 so I now know where the settings are coming from
Created a new Test directory in PL610 and copied the images (now need to remove DOPs from the BaseLine) and we have this
So that is where the values are coming from except the Sat = -10 has become Sat = -9!
But this value appears to be etched in the DOP and I cannot shake it off and I don’t think the double click is working the way it should and not the way I want.
What were your results? I will change my ‘Preferences’ to use one of my empty Presets and test again.
Edit 01:-
This is what I saw on the second system yesterday!
Start with new preference that includes only the basics.
Review HSL - empty
Set “Master” to Sat = 100
Set colour channels to Sat = 100
Double click returns to original status of all empty
Double-clicking on any of the coloured dots resets the adjustments for just that dot
Double-clicking on the white dot resets just the local “global” (“Master”) adjustments
Single-clicking on the arrow resets everything, “Master” and Colour channels
Double-clicking on the arrow resets all the Colour channels and resets the “Master” channel to some earlier value which might be 0 and effectively turns the “Master” value off as well or it might be something else, typically in my tests whatever value was assigned to it by the ‘Preference’ preset!!??
@Wolfgang that is what the test seems to show and my explanation didn’t really make is clear so it should have been
Double-clicking on the arrow resets all the Colour channels and resets the “Master” channel to the “default” values, i.e. the values which were was assigned to it by the ‘Preference’ preset (according to the results of my tests), if that original value was Sat = 0 and Vib = 0 then the “Master” channel will also be de-selected!!??
Yes - that’s correct. For those of us who have global Sat & Vib settings in our default preset (the one applied to “newly encountered” images) then this is handy … albeit, rather obscure !
However, I’m left wondering whether this is intentional behaviour - or, perhaps, it’s similar to the earlier behaviour for Single-Click on the Reset button, which left Master/White settings unchanged (which I believe was correct behaviour) … but which, unfortunately, DxO changed with the 7.01 minor update.
Checked HSL in DPL 7.0.1.31 on Mac and found that clicking the arrow once or twice resets HSL S&V to 0/0, in spite of them being set to -10/+10 by the preset I applied. And I get the same reset, even if the active dot (colour) is orange. It does not matter if I’ve applied the HSL with a preset manually or as default for new images. I always get a full HSL reset, single or double click alike.
To me, this looks like the ccw turning arrow acts as a general reset of the (global) HSL tool. It’s definitely not an “undo” button, which might be a more logical option in this tool.
Checked an older EA build too…and HSL behaves exactly like build 31.
Overall, the reset arrow does as expected, but I found no version of DPL that acted like described by @John-M in his opening post:
That is; with PLv7
Clicking on the global HSL tool’s Reset button - resulted only in settings for the hue-specific channels being reset to their defaults
… includes changes to the “Cyan” channel
… correctly resets ONLY the “Cyan” channel
- Global Sat & Vib settings are reset too
) will undo settings for all hues - whilst leaving the master/white channel unchanged … which is handy to know.
