Now, come on Alec, you still haven’t taken up my challenge to provide an image and your version in SFX for me to replicate in FilmPack.
That is assuming you want that type of B&W image.
Whereas my large B&W prints attract plaudits from fellow professional B&W photographers, who also come to me to print their images.
Come on Alec, where’s that test image?
The previous discussion and concrete examples were quite enough for me.
Answer:
I simply ran out of time and breath to argue (DxO’s lack of support for mobile photography, and DxO’s lack of support for more than the latest versions of macOS have killed much of my enthusiasm for their products and arguments around them).
Second Answer:
Whereas my large B&W prints attract plaudits from fellow professional B&W photographers, who also come to me to print their images.
I don’t like that style in black and white at all. Why are you attempting to force me to say unpleasant things again?
There’s ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza, Lebanon is under siege and our WEF politicians in Europe are trying to kick off WWIII. There’s far more important things to worry about than who likes what kind of BW images. We can disagree about what constitutes a meaningful rendering of a black and white image.
Answer to @PopsInABox
Out of the Nik toolbox, I only use Silver EFX. Color FX is impressive but too much trouble for what FilmPack can provide inside PhotoLab. This means my version of Nik is still at 3. DxO block upgrades beyond one or two versions now, so I’ll probably never have the most recent version. This means you can buy Nik, use it for Silver EFX and probably never upgrade it.
Black and white is not a large part of my work (I mostly see the world in colour, and that’s going back to the time when I bought black and white film and shot it too, in parallel with colour, in the pre-digital epoch. It’s not that long ago. The first serious DSLR affordable to consumers (barely) was the Canon D30, which launched in 2000 (with just 3MP).
I can appreciate (and do) varying viewpoints.
Luckily, I own both pieces of software so I can live in both worlds should I choose to.
I do have to say though, bringing up world events as a reason to not continue a conversation on black and white photography (that you supposedly voluntarily joined in on) is weird for me.
Regardless, thanks for the post.
Tom
You seem to be a victim of Russian imperial propaganda, blind to the facts on the ground. Horrible.
Sorry for being totally out-of-topic, but I didn’t start it.
But that was comparing interpretation and technique, not software.
For a comparison of tools to work, we would need to start from the same unedited file and I would be able to see your idea of how you envisage it turning out.
Since you seem to not like my renderings, it’s only fair that I do what I get paid for by other photographers and create a rendering, using FilmPack, to match your SFX rendering.
Which is why I suggest that I try to emulate your style.
I get the feeling I don’t have to force you. For some reason, you have taken a dislike to me, without truly knowing me.
My point is that fiddling around with DxO software is no longer a priority for me for two reasons:
The question is then why stick around DxO at all? Well I do still take and process photos, though processing is with a great deal less pleasure since PhotoLab 7 with its very low contrast interface.
I’m happy to share what I know with others in the DxO community and happy to learn from those who know what I don’t know. Some of @John-M 's posts on PhotoLab 8 changes have been incredibly useful.
Of course, I don’t dislike @Joanna. You have been very helpful to many newcomers and generous with your time, I deeply estime those qualities.That said, we disagree about the aesthetics of black and white photography, we deeply disagree about Apple/big tech, we deeply disagree about urgently installing the latest OS (a long conversation).
I appreciate your offer of a showdown over black and white processing. In another chapter in my life I would have welcomed it. The issue is that if I do anything, I do it full speed. And I don’t have the space now for what would no doubt be an interesting investigation of black and white processing. I didn’t say no initially, as I thought perhaps the space would become available. It didn’t.
That’ll be because there is no one right aesthetic. À chacun son goût.
I think our differences over SFX vs FP are down to the fact that you are accustomed to SFX and its presets, whereas I am used to FilmPack, its emulations and refining tools.
Although we may never get to see what your taste is, so I can try and emulate it, I’m guessing that both tools have the same capabilities, regardless of the starting image.
Yes, it is, but some of the wisest words I’ve read and have adopted as my motto are:
“Nothing is more important than that you see and love the beauty that is right in front of you, or else you will have no defence against the ugliness that will hem you in and come at you in so many ways.”
– Neal Stephenson, Anathem, 2008
Be well,
-Gordon.
No, I strongly disagree. FilmPack creates black and white images which look like colour images turned to black and white. Silver EFX creates black and white images which look like they were shot on black and white film.
That may be your opinion but in the B&W photography circles in which I work, that is far from common opinion.
It all depends on the original image and the background and skills of the person manipulating the image.
But, since you flat out refuse to offer one of your images to compare, I guess we will never know where you sit on that spectrum.
And, as I just said, it also depends on the desired aesthetic.
What is your opinion of the B&W images on my website https://grandes-images.com
Beautiful work, Joanna!
Thank you Gordon. But I must say they are a mixture of mine and my partner in crime, Helen
I’ve seen your black and white images and stand by my opinion. Why don’t you stop trying to forcefeed people FilmPack for black and white images? Just because you don’t see a difference doesn’t mean others don’t.
This “challenge” of yours is a farce in any case. With enough time and a good model, it would be possible to force PhotoLab/FilmPack to create something approaching a good crisp contrasty black and white image. I can replicate almost any processing myself in PhotoLab, given a RAW file and a finished image.
The issue is that the workflow isn’t there. Everything in FilmPack for black and white leads to images like the one we discussed: a colour photo desaturated.
Can you not leave it alone Joanna? There is no need to drive the people towards second-rate tools (FilmPack for BW) when they have easy access to better ones (Silver EFX for BW), fit for the purpose. Perhaps one day FilmPack will handle BW better. Today is not that day.
I would hope you took the time to look at my website B&W photos, all of which are taken on Fuji Acros 100 film, mainly 5" x 4" and 120. All processed in Photoshop.
So, it would appear it is my B&W photography style that you don’t like and not the fact that I prefer to use one tool over another.
You have said it yourself. It is possible to produce excellent B&W images in PL/FP. It’s just that you prefer to yse another tool that only works from TIFF images, whereas I prefer to work directly from RAW.
I am not encouraging folks to “leave” SFX - simply mentioning that, for those who prefer staying in one app, there is a way that is capable of producing excellent results that most of the world, except you, seem,to enjoy.
I do not criticise your choice of software. You are free to use whatever you prefer. But there really is no need to denigrate other people’s choices and preferences
Why are you looking for trouble? Just leave it alone, Joanna. No one needs a rehash of this discussion yet again. Just drop the FilmPack is fine for BW processing schtick. For most people who grew up shooting black and white and developing their own prints, it’s not. The whole paradigm of FilmPack BW is to create desaturated colour images. Photoshop has been able to desaturate colour images and create second-rate BW images for thirty years. We don’t need FilmPack for this.
Silver EFX turned that paradigm on its head and creates images which really look like they were conceived as BW images and even shot in BW. The photographers and programmers who created Silver EFX are a completely different team than those who created FilmPack and now maintain Silver EFX. They were visionaries who had real ties to the analogue world and high end photography.
If desaturated colour images are what makes your world go around, then no you don’t need Silver EFX. It’s of no help to you. I suggest you ignore the conversations about Silver EFX as you simply don’t see or feel what it does.
Why should I when it is the truth. The only problem is that you have a grudge (or two) against FilmPack.
So, it had to happen. Since you failed to offer an image for comparison, here is one of mine, processed in SFX and FilmPack, both with the Fuji Acros 100 emulation…
They are different framings so I can tell which is which. But, can you?
You still haven’t commented on the B&W images on my website yet. What’s the problem? Does good B&W photography annoy you?
Total codswallop!!! If that were the case, how come it provides colour filters to adjust the rendering of various colours, just like physical filters on a camera?
According to your hype. The only difference I see is that SFX never allows you to see the colour image before applying its default B&W preset, whereas FilmPack allows you to choose your preferred film rendering from the get go.
So, you’re saying the engineers who implemented FilmPack weren’t? And where did you get that pile of hogwash from?
You could also try the same about FilmPack.
I use FilmPack every week for my colour work. I do fantastic work with FilmPack. There are long posts here where I discuss the nuances of different Color Renderings with examples. But FilmPack BW is incredibly depressing stuff. I’m using Silver EFX from Nik v3, I’m not sure if DxO have removed the original BW film treatments in Silver EFX to the anodyne ones in FilmPack.
I will give you this – you certainly feel more strongly about this issue than I do.
For what it’s worth, I don’t particularly like any of the versions above.
I get a sneaking feeling that your opinion is based on your long experience with SFX and relatively little experience and experimentation with FilmPack.
I have SFX from the latest Nik Collection v7 and, due to lack of experience, found it more difficult to get the results I wanted, and find easy, with FilmPack.
But, as you can see, I got virtually the same result from both, because that is the result I want. So, as I said before, your opinion of FilmPack seems to be based more on my style of B&W printing than the tool I use to achieve the result.
I have printed B&W for other photographers and their styles can be markedly different from mine, but FilmPack gives me their style just as easily as mine.
I suppose because, in giving advice to others, I feel it is important to let them choose from the experience of users of both tools, without necessarily trashing the other. I agree that both SFX and FilmPack are equally competent - it’s just that, from my experience, FilmPack is more convenient as it doesn’t require me to create TIFF files from RAW originals before working on them.
Thus proving my point that the end result is all down to personal taste 
Thank you for “forcing” me to use SFX but, due to my lack of familiarity, the UI was definitely harder to use. You obviously use different presets and it would be interesting to see which you use to get “your style”
