PLv7 Request/Suggestion: Clarity for when PLv7 is in (or not in) Local Adjustment mode

Stenis · October 14, 2023, 2:49pm

I predicted this confusion earlier and the main problem is that there are local and global tools. In Capture One these problems are far of a problem since the idea is that ALL tools shall work both globally and locally. The way to achieve that is to separate the global and local modes are through the layers AND NOT through different sets of menus.

In Capture One the global “mode” is not a global mode at all really, it is just a separate layer called “Background” and all the tools that works “globally - on the Background” works “locally - on every other local adjustment layer” too. These problems in Photolab occurs because DXO is still trapped in the old metafor of “Control Point” think that has prevailed since the Google times. The Local Adjustments were never integrated with Photolab but just “bolted” on as sort of a “strange bird”.

There is really no good solution of this problem in Photolab where we are supposed to live in parallell worlds and DXO will have a maintenance problem that Capture One doesn´t even have and these problems won´t go away if we get back the old “Local Adjustment”-button. Do we really think that button shall solve this problem??

This interface problem of Photolab wil not go away until DXO takes a whole new grip on the layer system in Photolab I think. I also think there should be a possibility to turn a color pick into an own layer and a possibility to use the Color Wheel in all other layers.

IanS · October 14, 2023, 9:35pm

Agree 100% Steni. Such a simple solution to use a background layer. These UI issues will only grow as they try to add extra local tools like curves, allow HSL. To be used on brush layers etc.

Stenis · October 14, 2023, 10:04pm

Yes I can´t see anything but problems with the approach they have taken now but I think they at least can fix a static banner like the one below that gives us quick access to both the global and the local menus:

That way we will get kind of a dash board to quickly activate both the global and local menus and when activating the “Local Adjustments” the static part of that menu might look something like below where also the layer list and the layer tools would be exposed.

How about that? As it is now I feel a solution like that will speed up the shifts we now are forced to make between the global and local Color Wheel for example.

Today they have hidden the background layer but I´m convinced there is one, just that we can´t handle it in the layer list.

That said I still prefer version 7 over version 6 when it comes to the local layers and tools. I think it is easier today to make retouch works with version 7 than the versions before due to the new Luminous layer and the local Color Wheel.

Here my granddaughter turned into an “Easter Witch”, with a little helt of a few layers and the local Color Wheel.

In fact, it is possible to use even the “color picker” tool with a little work around even in Local Adjustments. As some people already figured out, we can first start on the “global” side and activate the Color Wheel and then click the “color picker” in the center of the wheel and pick the color you want to edit or change.

Then activate the Local Adjustment and apply a layer with “auto Mask” or “Brush” including the cyan colored “lanyard”. In this case it doesn´t even have to be especially precise since there is nothing else in that color close to it. Se to that the layer is still active and then open the local “Color Wheel”.

After that you are set to either change the color completely or just adjust the saturation or luminance. In this case I have changed the color from cyan to yellow to better match the color of the helmet.

Even if it´s not absolutely intuitive I don´t think this work around is any bigger problem that I can´t live with until DXO has fixed us a proper local “color picker”.

Another thing I wonder about is why the “Control Line” control point has both a Chroma- and a Luma-sliider…

… and why the Chrome-slider is missing in the Luminous-layer tools. Wouldn´t it be nice to have a “chroma”-slider in that case too? It should give us better control when adjusting the masks shouldn´t it?

KeithRJ · October 14, 2023, 10:17pm

I have always thought of global adjustments as being applied to the base photo (base layer if you like) and then LAs as being applied on top of that base photo. In a sense there are layers but you do not have control like you do in other programs. Base layer (global adjustments) applied first, then all LAs in the order that DxO decides!

I always try to do everything globally first then only use LAs if required to fine tune local areas. If your stick to this doctrine you should be fine - keep it simple!

Stenis · October 14, 2023, 11:02pm

Sure, Keith but you won´t get around the backsides of that approach which is a global and a local set of menus where many tools are doubled. You don´t need that complication and maintenance overhead with a background layer that is handled the way all other layers are handled.

Sometimes it´s very practical and efficient that both the Background layer and “color picks” turned into dedicated layers for color picks (which is a nice feature of CO that DXO still lacks), when working with layers.

They made a major overhaul of the interface of Capture One three or four versions ago (correct me with more precise data if you wish) just in order to harmonize the way global and local tools worked. It is a lot easier to learn to use a software with a set of tools that work in a consistent way through the whole software. Capture One is a very competent software with a lot of advanced tools that earlier came with a much steeper learning curve than there is today, since their developers have been working hard to improve and simplify the user dialogue in many ways. I think DXO will end up facing the same problems the CO people saw earlier in Capture One.

John-M · October 15, 2023, 1:28am

Yes, and it doesn’t even need to be the same tool-type as the one you wish to (re)work with … it can even be a tool that’s not relevant to the one you intend to work with (such as selecting the Eraser to work with a Control Point !)

It’s behaviour like this that makes PLv7’s LA implementation so obscure and puzzling - - esp. for new / inexperienced users.

platypus · October 15, 2023, 7:31am

Add that the show/hide mask switch is only active, when a LA slider has been moved.

Why not couple functionality to the phase of the moon? Okay, seriously, if those dependencies could be removed, DPL could, again, be relatively straightforward to use.

Let’s just be clear: Masking is the problem, everything else in LA is fine imo.

Pathal · October 15, 2023, 8:25am

This is not a problem, instead this is the strength of PhotoLab giving much less complexity to local adjustments using these best suited Control Points and Lines.
I do agree that the tools being migrated to the palettes should be easier managed thru a clear and simpler activation of the tools and masks, but this does not diminish the interest of not having layers.
And btw, what you call « old metafor » does not come from google but from Nik.

KameraD · October 15, 2023, 8:41am

Thanks for the hint, Platypus. I’ve been struggling with this too, wondering what the point is of hiding the mask if it doesn’t work. Had this experience before.
When unchecked, you can turn the mask off. But it has no effect. When hovering it is still shown.

Stenis · October 15, 2023, 12:20pm

As I said, a quick fix they can do with a minimum of effort is to fix a static banner like the one there already is there. It will give us quick access to both the global and the local menus and save us from this eternal unessessary scrolling we now have to do all the time when working in the Local Adjustment mode.

… and it still puzzles me that they could release this version without paying attention to these inefficiencies in the user dialog. … another and … it is not all that educational having to make the color picking in the global colorwheel when working with Local Adjustments. Still I´m grateful that it´s finally possible to work with color mangemant locally too in a manner that is not limited to what the old “equalizer” was able to offer. I´m pretty confident DXO will fix this soon because it is fruit hanging pretty low.

KameraD · October 15, 2023, 1:35pm

Ok, I have to answer myself. When the mask is on, it is always visible. When off, only when hovering. No idea if this makes sense. And you have to know that you have to change a parameter before it works. Lots of workarounds.

Stenis · October 15, 2023, 10:54pm

The important thing here is not really whom to praise for or not for the local adjustment heritage in Photolab. For me it´s not even important if you or anyone else love the equalizer metafor better than the parallell menu system. DXO was finally forced to find another more consistent user interface to make room for the same Color Wheel interface as they introduced in the global user interface. That was just impossible to integrate in the equalizer and that is probably the main reason why they ditched the equalizer.

Before they did that the user dialog in the global interface was completely different from how it looked and worked in the old “Local Adjustment” construction. There was for sure some advantages with the old equalizer interface but it is rarely a good idea to offer two so disparate user dialog solutions as was the case before version 7.

There are some really annoying things with the new interface that are not version 1.0 but maybe 0.8 and I think DXO has made a mistake being in such a hurry to release version 7 that they left a few really disturbing lose ends. Maybe the marketing people at DXO saw a possibility to be one of the first or the first raw-converter manufacturers to launch a yearly upgrade. There has been a long tradition during many years to release new versions around October every year. Maybe DXO wanted to be first this year in order avoid drowning in the noise when Adobe and the others comes with their releases - even if both Capture One and Adobe claims they now are free to add new features any time of the year since they migrated to the subscription business model.

John-M · October 16, 2023, 12:41am

Yes - that’s how it’s working.

The problem with the behaviour for when “Show Mask” is off - and working with a Control Line - is that as soon as one touches the CL’s colour/tone-picker the mask activates … which makes it difficult to see the underlying image in order to place the picker on an optimum part of the image (such as on a particular colour/tone in a sky, for example) … It’s quite frustrating !

platypus · October 16, 2023, 4:45am

The switch needs a new name: auto show mask or , better, auto hide mask and should actually be a three-way switch (off-auto-on). A two way switch can work if the missing position can be set as a preference. Moreover, the mask should go away when we need to see the picture, e.g. while adjusting or using the pickup tool or, with overlay, when we paint a mask.

If we distinguish a) mask creation from b) actually doing the adjustment, things get simpler.

a) mask creation and modification
→ mask always on and (configurably) opaque and switchable
b) local adjustment and pickup
→ mask always off and switchable

All we now need is a simple condition describing the transitions from a) to b) and vice versa.

Wolfgang · October 16, 2023, 11:22am

( A ) As you know, selections with the Control Line’s picker (like with Control Points) are based on Chrominance and Luminance values, which is why we have these adjustment sliders.
What you are ask for can be achieved with a Control Line.

( B ) The selection with the Luminosity mask’s picker is based on Luminance – hence the name.
To (re)adjust move the picker, use the stepped gray wedge and / or experiment with the values / triangles.
grafik

Further corrections (other than repositioning the selection point, size or spread) can be made
(A) with additional or negative Control lines / Control points
(B) with Brush or Eraser (also use its Feathering and Opacity)

KameraD · October 16, 2023, 2:55pm

Indeed, having just experienced that too.

Stenis · October 16, 2023, 10:35pm

I know Wolfgang but I feel the “Control Line”-tool is such an “educationally” strange way of doing that. The Control Lines can be very useful for controlling masked “band like areas” or how to explain it but that is not what I intend to do normally with the Luminous mask.

Well, I guess I have to combine the slider with the “Eraser”-tool to refine what the “picker” creates as a mask in order to get the control I want to have over these masks. That might do it. I´m familiar since many years with Capture One with the luma-control above. Infact it looks a lot to what CO have had for ages. Before “Dodge and Burn” in CO got smart dedicated brushes we had to use the corresponding tools in CO too.

John-M · October 17, 2023, 2:54am

Also note that you can use negative Control-Points and (even) negative Control-Lines to fine-tune a Control-Line’s mask selection.

Wolfgang · October 17, 2023, 1:18pm

yes → see …

(A) with additional or negative Control lines / Control points

.

IanS · October 18, 2023, 9:02am

A Luma mask is a well defined concept and therefore selects based on Luma, so no chroma slider.

The way forward for DXO which would alleviate the problem with Luma masks only being in FP would be to use the new Luma control within Control and Line Points. This would significantly improve PL’s masking for very little effort. While we are talking improvements can we please have a “Filled” mask option to avoid having to use a Control Line pushed past the image boundary. Really how difficult would that be to implement?
ControlLine/Point with new Luma selection slider: