Influence of manual adjustments on "(Blue)MagicWant" auto mode ( editted for more clarity :-) )

[OXiDant (Peter)]

i try to understand is how different tools work and influence each other.

• does auto exposure compensation influence Smart Lighting and/or vise versa?

• If i have several Blue Wants active in contrast, moiré and such and i change one thing like advanced sliders highlights shadows or such does the automode in other sections notice of this?

I did go through the pdf manual and it is a bit foggy about the automated behaviour of the tools and which have lead over the other.

• And if i change clearview (other kind of microcontrast) by making it stronger does this effect global sharpness settings and the bluewant of microcontrast?

in the color rendering department: why isn’t Panasonic in category camera body list?
Do i need this for a better color rendering or is the generic version just fine?

One other thing i can’t grasp is the somewhat different behaviour of exposure compensation from what i am used to in a other application.
it seems in center weighted average always centre the histogram and not tries to expose towards the right. Max without blowing highlights.
(Does Smart Lighting-level effect its “choise” in auto mode or other way around: does smart Lighting set on x% follow exposure compensation changes? (So if i crank up exposure Smartlighting is lowering only highlights and not counter adjust the lifted shadows by me?)

(The spot weighted SmartLighting tool with boxes of importance is very clever and i start to use that more and more for adjusting after preset.)

• is het exposure toolset stil expanding? i mis for instance two eye droppers for ETTR and ETTL.
• eyedropper ETTR = i point ad a white area click on it and the exposure compensation correct hole image until this spot is about 255 of the range of 0-255. (just near max white before blown.)
• eyedropper ETTL = i point at a place that’s suppose to be black and eposure compensation corrects hole image to get this spot near blacklevel 0.

These tools are very handy to get a sense of the dynamic range of the image and see how low exposure is when the blacks are reached and how high to reach max highlight. This does give me a sense to see if i need to start from the blacks or the whites for exposure compensation raise or lower general exposure. From there i can use the spot metered Smart Lighting and or graduated layers to correct the image on local level.

I hope this editted row of questions makes more sense for answering properly.

[Benoit (Benoît)]

Hi, and sorry for the late answer, there are quite many questions in this message, and I’m gonna try to answer them below:
“i try to understand is how different tools work and influence each other.
• does auto exposure compensation influence Smart Lighting and/or vise versa? –> no, they are independent.
• If i have several Blue Wants active in contrast, moiré and such and i change one thing like advanced sliders highlights shadows or such does the automode in other sections notice of this? --> no, they are also independent.
I did go through the pdf manual and it is a bit foggy about the automated behaviour of the tools and which have lead over the other.
• And if i change clearview (other kind of microcontrast) by making it stronger does this effect global sharpness settings and the bluewant of microcontrast? --> no, as sharpness correction is applied before clearview, and clearview impacts larger details as sharpness correction does. As for microcontrast, it’s only related to face detection and noise level in current picture, again clearview setting does not impact micro-contrast correction.
in the color rendering department: why isn’t Panasonic in category camera body list? --> Yes indeed. To avoid having a too long list, hybrid cameras are not kept except for high end ones.
Do i need this for a better color rendering or is the generic version just fine? --> Yes, it’s perfectly fine with default color rendering setting. Not to have explicitly your camera in the list only means that you cannot apply the color look of this camera to RAW pictures taken with other cameras.
One other thing i can’t grasp is the somewhat different behaviour of exposure compensation from what i am used to in a other application.
it seems in center weighted average always centre the histogram and not tries to expose towards the right. Max without blowing highlights.
(Does Smart Lighting-level effect its “choise” in auto mode or other way around: does smart Lighting set on x% follow exposure compensation changes? (So if i crank up exposure Smartlighting is lowering only highlights and not counter adjust the lifted shadows by me?)
–> smart lighting behaves independently from exposure setting, and we advise using smart lighting only, as it already includes a mechanism aiming at using whole dynamic range. If you use exposure in center weighted average mode, it should adjust exposure so that the center of the picture is well exposed.
(The spot weighted SmartLighting tool with boxes of importance is very clever and i start to use that more and more for adjusting after preset.)
• is het exposure toolset stil expanding? i mis for instance two eye droppers for ETTR and ETTL.
• eyedropper ETTR = i point ad a white area click on it and the exposure compensation correct hole image until this spot is about 255 of the range of 0-255. (just near max white before blown.)
• eyedropper ETTL = i point at a place that’s suppose to be black and eposure compensation corrects hole image to get this spot near blacklevel 0.
–> yes, that’s a nice suggestion and we’ll add it to our backlog.
These tools are very handy to get a sense of the dynamic range of the image and see how low exposure is when the blacks are reached and how high to reach max highlight. This does give me a sense to see if i need to start from the blacks or the whites for exposure compensation raise or lower general exposure. From there i can use the spot metered Smart Lighting and or graduated layers to correct the image on local level.
I hope this editted row of questions makes more sense for answering properly.”

I hope these answers are clear, don’t hesitate to ask if you want further information.
Have a good day!

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@Benoit

I hope these answers are clear, don’t hesitate to ask if you want further information.

Thanks for the detailed answers. this helps alot.
As i read it correct all auto modes magic wants are responding to the rawfile as it came in. It is a base setting. as soon as i start to adjust something i need to control also the settings made by the magic wants.Because they don’t react on my handling. Good to know.

Clearview, as far as i can understand it it aplies on a even spread base blacklevel pixels to bring clarity. take the image down a bit to blacklevel point 0. And the microcontrast slider does outliningsharpening. It selective ads contrast on lines/edges to enhance the details.
So global sharpening in the lens correction and microcontrast are both image sharpeners on a detailed selective way. And it does recognise faces and hold of when it does. (quite smart)

@Benoit

Not to have explicitly your camera in the list only means that you cannot apply the color look of this camera to RAW pictures taken with other cameras.

Ok i was in the assumption that when the camera is in the list it can use menu settings in the camera. like idynamic or color adjustment in the style menu. So when i alter menu in camera it is picked up bij dxo color rendering. (i know this is possible to extract out the exifdata.)

@Benoit

and we advise using smart lighting only

Yes thanks, i figured out that using spotmeatered function of smartlighting (the face detection but then manual) i can control a lot more. and indeed getting more spread histogram.

I have to say that DxO Photo lab jumped from plugin towards a strong alrounder and standalone begin to end developer without losing the strongpoints. Heads off from me.

[Benoit (Benoît)]

Thanks. The topic you raise about interactions between algorithms is quite tough, and generally we try to design algorithms that addresses different aspects to limit interactions. Of course, as you have mentioned, they sometimes cover aspects of image quality that overlaps, and in this case, we also try to limit interactions: for instance if a customer manually changes exposure, smart lighting is designed to not compensate this manual setting (as changing manually a slider - exposure in this example - that is automatically compensated by another - smart lighting in this case - would lead to a strange behavior from a customer point of view). But if you take clearview, changing for instance black level in selective tones will lead to a readjustment of Clearview correction (as a big part of the job can already be done by black level compensation in selective tones). if you like, don’t hesitate to give feedbacks about the way you would expect algorithms interacts! Thanks again.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@Benoit

Thanks. The topic you raise about interactions between algorithms is quite tough

Yes, it is very deep in the software and technique of the handling a rawfile towards a image. I just scratching the surface as a user. And i am not even close to a proffesional photographer or post processor. (That’s why Photolab is helping alot to raise above the base image quality the camera provides)

@Benoit

Of course, as you have mentioned, they sometimes cover aspects of image quality that overlaps, and in this case, we also try to limit interactions:

That actual a good thing, if the application automated algoritms of magicwants counter act on adjustments of a user without any visible warning it can be confusing and frustrating.

@Benoit

if you like, don’t hesitate to give feedbacks about the way you would expect algorithms interacts! Thanks again.

Well you asked for it

One thing springs to mind and i could be completely wrong about it: contrasttoolset, clearview, tonecurve are al contrast influence tools and in my logic thinking would it be normal that the curve tool line is react to all contrasttools and shows the actual curveline caused by adjustments in clearview and contrast sliders. (maybe by toggle in a checkbox) Because the line is/can be a representation of the contrast levels in the image.
(in default the line is straight but when adding (fine/micro/normal) contrast and or clearview the line should be bended/curved according to the effects of the adjustment.) I am not skilled to use the tonecurveline tool in a way i know what i am doing so i use the more straight reacting sliders, but like the histogram is a indicator of the way the image is buildup so the tonecurve line can be a visionalising of the actual contrast acros the image. As a bonus you can fineadjust with the line. (connect sliders position with tonelinecurve so adjustment on one side wil react on the other side? otherwise it is a cumulated value of adjustments.)

I don’t know if it is already visible,or easy to program in the original software but what can be a plus is that if a manual action somewhere by the user effecting a automated magicwant setting let this know bij changing the color of the magicwantsign on the right or “On/Off” switch on the left.,The color (orange?) change is indicating that the “default” set by the algoritm of that magicwant is effected by an other adjusment and “needs attention for possible readjustment”. This color signal can also be used for al out of defaultplaced sliders of a tool.
This way the user can keep track of changed settings after first opening rawfile and the user is learning which tools interact with/effect each other.

al this above is just things which springs to mind and i realy don’t know if other people are support my thoughts or just think i don’t care. it is fine as it is.

[Benoit (Benoît)]

Thanks a lot for your new feedbacks! Contrast setting could approximately be “translated” into curve tool, but as for algorithms like clearview or smart lighting, it’s not so representative, as these algorithms have a local behavior (in the sense that 2 pixels with same grey level can be impacted very differently according to luminosity of pixels around it), while tone curve tool has a global behavior (impact on a given pixel does not depends on its surrounding). Anyway the idea is interesting, as well as for your suggestion to better represent interactions of manual settings on auto modes! This topic isn’t often asked, but it’s probably partly because it’s quite hard to formalize for a user (tat’s a real tough topic + user interface doesn’t clearly points out what interacts or not as you suggested).

[John-M (Melbourne, Australia - Win10)]

@OXiDant

One thing springs to mind and i could be completely wrong about it: contrasttoolset, clearview, tonecurve are al contrast influence tools and in my logic thinking would it be normal that the curve tool line is react to all contrasttools and shows the actual curveline caused by adjustments in clearview and contrast sliders. (maybe by toggle in a checkbox) Because the line is/can be a representation of the contrast levels in the image.

(in default the line is straight but when adding (fine/micro/normal) contrast and or clearview the line should be bended/curved according to the effects of the adjustment.) I am not skilled to use the tonecurveline tool in a way i know what i am doing so i use the more straight reacting sliders, but like the histogram is a indicator of the way the image is buildup so the tonecurve line can be a visionalising of the actual contrast acros the image. As a bonus you can fineadjust with the line. (connect sliders position with tonelinecurve so adjustment on one side wil react on the other side? otherwise it is a cumulated value of adjustments.)

Yes - I reckon this would be a great feature (in having the Tone Curve reflect the impact of other contrast-influencing functions) … and an excellent means of better understanding how the Tone Curve might be used/refined.

[John-M (Melbourne, Australia - Win10)]

@Benoit

Is the exposure toolset stil expanding? i miss for instance two eye droppers for ETTR and ETTL.

• eyedropper ETTR = I point at a white area and click on it, and the exposure compensation corrects the whole image until this spot is about 255 of the range of 0-255. (just near max white before blown.)

• eyedropper ETTL = I point at a place that’s suppose to be black and eposure compensation corrects the whole image to get this spot near blacklevel 0.

–> yes, that’s a nice suggestion and we’ll add it to our backlog.

That would be an EXCELLENT enhancement.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

Ive bin using the DxO Smart Lighting spotweighted tool as a exposure adjustment tool as suggested. Works great for shadow and highlight like dodge and burn. This influences the tone curve/contrast of the image off coarse. it flattens the image by raising dark sections and lowering highlight. it effects the tonecurve by altering/adjust the lumination/exposure of certain area’s. By lowering/raising Exposure you lower or lift the total tonecurve as one. (Am i correct in this?)

This is correctable in the Selective Tone Tool and Contrast Tool and/or given a even stronger effect. (lift bothem curve of black or lower highlight tip of white.)

Ive bin playing with Contrast: advanced settings highlights/Midtones/Shadows and the Selective Tone version of it: which have the blacks as extra.
They both are influencing the luminance visible in the histogram. (logic, as i understand Tone is the luminosity (light/dark) of a image and area and contrast is the difference of two pixel(group)s next to each other to define lines and plane edges.) (correct?)

So as i find it is best to equal the setting of highlights (-20) in tone in the contrast version (highlights -20) to avoid greying of white by over contrasting. (I don’t know if this is a result of more saturation by lowering lumination or that the black microdots of contrast are popping up.(not that into raw processing))

And now i use the histogram and image as a guide for my adjustments but somehow i can’t define the breakingpoint, The point where the different contrast/tone sliders having a “wall” a steep disruption, unnatural tone curve appears. (like a equalizer in your amplifier: if you don’t make a certain wave vorm (a W or V or reverse V) but only shift the outer bass and highey to max and the rest on default the music goes off tone, sounds horrible.) So i assume in contrast/tone adjustment this needs the same approach.

This is where a visualisation of my adjustment other then image and histogram would be of great help. To detect those “gabs” or tears in the tone-curve.
I know it can be done because my other application has this option, checkbox “show tone on tonecurve”
showing tone curve reacting on contrast, gamma, contrastcentre and behind the histogram as extra.

As extra i can pull the window larger for more detailed work and dock it or float it or hide it.

So in a ideal situation: checkbox in histogram window next to the “sun” “show tonecurve”
this activates a visualisation of the contrast and tone adjustments in the histogram window.
and it would be nice if i can floate the window and enlarge x% by pressing “floate” and dock back to original size when i am done.(larger window more detailed view)

i have to say i am used to this other approach in contrast centre kind of slider with gamma and contrast/blacklevel and DxO’s version is more a finetool but because of that less easy to master.

(every day i play with DxO PL i find new things to sink my teeth in. )

[bobkoure]

• eyedropper ETTR = I point at a white area and click on it, and the exposure compensation corrects the whole image until this spot is about 255 of the range of 0-255. (just near max white before blown
.)
• eyedropper ETTL = I point at a place that’s suppose to be black and eposure compensation corrects the whole image to get this spot near blacklevel 0.

I’d love it if there was a way to select in the settings what is ‘white’ and what is ‘black’. Rather than 0-255, I’d use Zone 0 - X, which might scale better as we end up with more bits and cameras get more dynamic range. It might be interesting to have a middle grey dropper (Zone V).