How to create photos like "the masters", and is PhotoLab a useful tool?

The biggest question I had at the time, was whether it was better to leave the camera in “multi-point” mode, or figure out how to set it back to a single point. I realize that all the lighting up were giving me an indication of where the focus was, but I enjoyed using a single point earlier, so I knew exactly where on my screen the focus was set.

I was in front, approaching the chickens, and my friend Susie was off to the left, also approaching. A few seconds after this I knew they would react to Susie, and all the chickens would move off to my right. I had just a few seconds before I expected them all to move away.

I no longer believe in “waiting”. I prefer to capture any shot that might work, and make the decisions later.

Every few seconds, everything was changing, from bright sunlight to dark shadows. I figured the camera would take care of that every time I focused. As to the buffalo, most of the time its head was down at the ground. When it raised its head, I would shoot.

Both the buffalo and the chicken shoots were not very productive. I did much better with the Blue Osprey and then the last day, with a group of pelicans. For both, I could set up my camera, get all the adjustments set, and wait for the action. My patience paid off. I’ll move those photos to my desktop, and resume editing them, perhaps tomorrow.

But the multi-point mode takes away the control of where you want the focus in favour of an average distance “somewhere” but not necessarily where you intended.

  1. if she is your friend, why not ask her to wait before moving?
  2. after they’ve moved, you might get a chance of a better composition
  3. follow the chickens and wait for the decisive moment again.

In French, we use the word “mitrailler”, which translates as “to machine gun”. Keep on dong this and you just end up wearing out the shutter and being continually frustrated at the quality of images you are getting.

This is why I would set the ISO to cope with the duller light and then put the camera in ‘A’ mode to control the depth of field.

Which is why I mentioned making a noise to attract its attention, then you are in charge.

[ muhaaaha – just fell of my chair :slight_smile: ]

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I like the sequence photos. I did something similar with a flock of pelicans, but have yet to edit the images. I moved the whole two-weeks of photos from my MacBook Pro to my Mac Mini earlier today, and perhaps tomorrow I’ll get to do some editing.

Lovely photos of the seagull!!!

That is very much forbidden. There is an even larger herd not too far from this herd, and people are warned to NOT in any way interact with the buffalo. They are to be left alone.

I’m failing to understand the basic premise of this thread. The concept of trying to capture an image “like the old masters” is so nebulous that one cannot even answer the question. And what does PhotoLab have to do with it? PhotoLab is, by definition, a post-processing tool, and whether you use it or not has no effect on the “capture” phase. I guess I just don’t understand what you’re even asking.

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Maybe don’t take everything you hear as gospel truth? Look, it sounds like you’ve been shooting photographs for a while, at least long enough that you should have enough experience to inform your own opinions on a few things. Have you ever used Auto ISO, or are you simply relying on something you heard so long ago that you can’t even recall the context?

Just being on this forum a couple of days, I’ve run across a bunch of threads that consist of you basically spinning your wheels trying to work out how to make your images look better in post, and I think your effort would be much better spent on going back to the fundamentals. You need to know your gear inside out, and you need a solid understanding of composition and exposure. Period. PL5 can do a lot, but it can’t fix a bad photograph. Better to spend the energy on taking good photos in the first place. PL5 will seem pretty effortless afterwards (once you get over the learning curve and develop a workflow, at least).

I don’t mean to sound harsh, but I think you’re putting the cart before the horse somewhat. I see lots of questions about basic camera operation and an unwillingness to get out of your comfort zone and experiment, which is really how you learn. Trial and error. Rinse and repeat. Take more pictures and be aware and intentional about what you’re doing, so you can learn what works and what doesn’t.

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MJB, I came here to the forum to learn, not to “show off”. I don’t take everything everyone says as “gospel truth”, whatever that is, but there are a group of people who I accept are far beyond my limits, and I usually at least try what they suggest. It has been VERY helpful.

Auto-ISO - I used to have it set on all my cameras, then I turned it off. Everything it did was “behind my back”, and I wanted to know what my camera was doing, both the things I set, and any choices the camera made. Even in (P)rogram mode I can see the settings, and over-ride them.

What’s wrong with “spinning my wheels”? I agree with what you wrote, but like anything else, I enjoy trying other people’s ideas, and trying things out. I probably really understand about half the controls provided by PL5, and yeah, I guess it’s spinning my wheels trying to learn new tools, but eventually they start to make sense. Ain’t nothing easy.

I disagree with the first thing you wrote, but agree fully with the second. In my series of 7 photos that I intended to process in Photomatix, the middle photo I eventually used all by itself looked like a horrible photo, but to me I eventually learned that as a RAW photo, it contained everything I needed to turn it into a beautiful photo I enjoy very much. I obviously needed (and got) help with the processing - a LOT of help. But the bottom line, that beautiful photo was there all the time, hiding in the RAW image.

Some things HAVE TO be perfect in an image - two of them are composition, and timing. In that sense, I now agree with you - it’s imperative to get that right in the first place.

For other things, I disagree - now I think it’s important to capture the necessary information in a RAW image to allow me to use a tool like PL5 to extract the image I saw in my mind. As long as the information is there, I can access it when I get home, on my computer.

Don’t worry about sounding harsh - feel free to say what you think. Am I “putting the cart before the horse”? Perhaps, but I have learned that it is most important to simply capture all the necessary information in a single file, such that I can bring out what I saw in my mind later, when using my computer and PL5.

On my recent visit to Colorado, half the photos were taken “within my comfort zone”, and the other half well out of it. I think I forced my camera to do what I wanted it to do - you can judge this yourself when I start posting more of those images.

You also wrote “take more photos”. I agree, but not for the reason you meant. I may take 25 photos of something to get a single picture that shows what I wanted. I probably took over 30 photos of a flock of Pellicans, hoping to get one photo I liked, and when I got something I thought was good, I wanted to do better, over and over. This is my first (and only) outing with a 600mm lens, which introduced its own issues, as in how to hold the lens still, and how to focus on things so far away, and how high did I need to go with the shutter to minimize any blur from movement. There is a >LOT< that I have yet to learn. Next time I will raise the ISO even higher, so I can use an even higher shutter speed, and use a tripod, not a wood fence, to stabilize the lens.

Please DO continue to post, and feel free to be as “harsh” as you wish. Good feedback is always helpful, more so when it is specific, not general.

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There is a big difference between trying to fix a fundamentally flawed photograph in post-processing, and recovering highlight/shadow detail from a RAW file - one is normal workflow (the latter), the other is just putting lipstick on a pig (the former).

To say nothing about composition and exposure at the moment, let’s talk about gear, since you want specifics. You have owned and operated a number of well-regarded camera systems, apparently for decades, and ostensibly even worked professionally as a photographer (?), if I read correctly. And yet, in one thread, you mentioned trying to achieve shallow depth of field in one shot, and inexplicably choosing f/11 as an aperture setting. You seem to prefer shooting in Program mode. You struggle with understanding metering modes. When people have mentioned experimenting with film simulations, you have shrugged off the suggestion because you don’t know the differences between film stocks (and seemingly, have no interest in learning). Honestly, the apparent gaps in your knowledge are nothing short of baffling, considering your stated background.

I say none of this to insult you, but rather to encourage you to go back to basics and build a strong foundation to build on. My impression is that, at some point early on, you grew bored of the fundamentals and skipped right past them, but the problem is this puts you in a perpetual beginner mode. You can only go so far in photography without a thorough understanding of your tool.

One suggestion would be to consider a camera that supports a “live view” mode. Ideally enable highlight peaking. The benefit of a WYSIWYG finder can be invaluable for quickly training you to control your exposure triangle, and get comfortable with dialing in exposure compensation - you’ll start to know when you need it even before you’ve raised the camera to your eye.

I would also recommend shooting in aperture-priority mode and enabling auto ISO with an acceptable minimum shutter speed. This way you can focus on just one thing at a time (at least in terms of exposure - you still of course need to worry about framing, focus, etc.). Of course there are times when shutter speed becomes more important and then you can just switch to shutter priority - I think most photographers find this is a minority of shooting situations, though.

RE: auto ISO: modern sensor performance combined with modern software has resulted in almost unimaginable high-ISO performance, even from consumer-grade cameras. I just came back to photography after 10 or 12 years away (and mostly being a film shooter) and am blown away by what I can do now. Your camera will allow you to set whichever maximum ISO you’re comfortable with, but I think you will find good results at least up through ISO 1600, if not higher. I think ISO is far and away the LEAST important thing you should be thinking about while out shooting. Far better to get the shot and deal with some noise than to miss the shot entirely. You seem to have strict self-imposed rules about what is “cheating” or not, but I would encourage you to not insist on doing things the hard way every time.

Finally, composition. This is obviously crucial. When I look at your photos I find them to be busy or unfocused in their intent. You’re presenting a scene, but my attention is not directed at any particular element, and the result is a snapshot that proves you were in a certain place at a certain time, and not much more. At this point, I think it’s only fair that I show some of my work, because how can I suppose to give you feedback and advice otherwise? And also, to illustrate my point about composition. Now, I don’t pretend to be anything other than an amateur, and I suspect the content and style of my photos will not be to your liking - that’s okay. But I endeavor to achieve a certain look and mood with my work, and I especially aim for clean, uncluttered compositions, which I think I mostly pull off. You can see here.

Now, I’m not saying your compositions need to be like mine, and indeed photography would be pretty boring if there were only one way to do things. But find some way to isolate your subject and increase dynamism, think about things like framing, leading lines, layering, juxtapostion, etc. Look critically at the photos you enjoy and think about what makes the compositions work, and then try to bring that over to your shooting in an intentional way.

The last, last thing I would say is, always carry a camera. Everywhere you go, even if it’s a point-and-shoot (albeit one sophisticated enough to allow control of exposure parameters). I failed to heed this advice for many, many years, and my photography suffered as a result. The wonderful thing about digital photography is you get so much instant feedback on what is working and not, and if you’re shooting every day, so much the better. I really think it’s easier to get better faster than in the film days, so long as you’re reflective about what you’re doing. And you live in one of the most unique, vibrant, and interesting cities in the world (I was born and raised in Miami myself) - there are literally countless photo opportunities all around you. No need to travel to Colorado or India or anywhere else for inspiration. I think it’s a common thing for photographers to feel uninspired in familiar surroundings (I know I used to feel this way, too), but one of the best things I ever learned is that there are good photos to be made anyway and everywhere, so long as we can ditch our “grass is greener on the other side” mentality.

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The longer I read this thread, the less … no, the more I see you @mikemyers as a person who claims he wants to learn but is defending dogmas more than showing better pictures than pointless chicken and a bored buffalo in dull light which apparently thinks " oh no, another tourist in my food". And that was 27 posts ago. Of 200. And except of Cartier Bresson no other name of “old masters” was involved in your first post. Do you think he would have used a forum to develop his style? If there’s anything he could have benefit of today’s “improvements” – what does it matter? The man dies in 2004 and I think he had used Auto ISO, but I never met him, so…

The craft depends a lot on the relationships you can establish with people. One word can spoil everything, everyone tenses up and shuts down.

If he said something like that, is there any hint of tool, of developing service or something else in the sentence? Or “copying old masters and which brush would be a useful tool”? Apparently he didn’t develop or enlarge his own pictures, so shoot JPG… :roll_eyes:

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Taking a picture like a master takes the “brain” to see the occasion and the technique to take the shot including suitable composition, lighting and all. Whatever is done to the shot in post-processing, can either accentuate or attenuate the story, message or feeling of the image, no matter what tools are used.

…is PhotoLab a useful tool?
“yes, definitely, depending on who is operating it”.

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Hi welcome to this forum.

This is true at a point it can be written in stone. :slight_smile:

i move around and visit many places by car, and every time i see something which would call for a image to take if i was carrying my camera. (little point to consider is i can’t take my camera every where because of i carry a toolcase and parts around and risk of theft is eminent.)
Sometimes in slow season i can have some extra time to wander off between two tasks and aim for some images and take my m43 set with me stacked in a neutral bag or case
Most difficult is raise above the “snapshot”. which means take time to scan the scene and search for optimum composition. Most fun are “details” in common area’s. things your eye is catched by wile passing by.

Auto iso: highly underappreciated.
DxO denoising is about 3200iso on a m43 comfortable and 6400 if dynamic range is enough still workable. for professional printing use i would not go above 1600iso if i can avoid it i think (this is what other people told me) i just go 3200 intelligent auto iso on A-mode (it detects motion and raises iso to gain shutterspeed)

Mostly i just play around. Use the endless image for free which digital provide. (below are oocjpegs i need to run the raw’s through dxo)
Using every thing i can think off just for fun to see the effect.


ant’s highway
i tried to catch ants view perspective and don’t get bitten at the same time… :wink:


f9 on crop 2 is close to diffraction.
or

or blown kidney:

or butterfly on a flower:

in the sand:

Back yard and with extentiontubes attached. really fun but geesh difficult to control dof correctly


any way back to this thread,
I think the right thread header should be:
“How to polish my rawfiles to a point that it looks ok using DxO?”
“masters” gives the impression that we want to match a respectable input from a photographer.
playing around and let others play around with your rawfile opens doors and you gain different aproaches in post processing it doesn’t make you a better photographer. Repeating to take images after learning the wrongs of the former to see if it’s get better do.

I don’t mind to play around with others input, it sharpens my skills too wile searching for a solution.

And to break a lans for @mikemyers , he’s just spending time on dxo forum chatting with friends about photography and learning about using DxOPL’s toolset. :slightly_smiling_face:

Maybe it would be better if DxOStaff is creating a “livingroom” for chatting about anything you like within reasonable boundary’s. So it’s easier for people to ignore those kind of threads if they don’t like to participate in those threads.

Again welcome and i hope you post some things you like to talk about regarding DxOPL and it’s photographic post processing features.

Guilty as charged. I usually shoot in aperture priority, but there are times when I just select Program Mode because I’m too busy thinking about other things. If I really need more or less depth of field, or a faster shutter, if I have time, I’ll select it.

Never having heard of all those films, why should I bother film simulations? Why not just make the photo look like what I envision it looking like by using the. controls available in the editor? I rarely shoot film, and I rarely make prints - my goal is to post my images on my web gallery.

I guess I don’t have many thoughts either way about auto-ISO. It’s instantly available if/when I want it. What you wrote sound very true, now, but not so years ago.

The top of my list is two things - composition, and timing.

Too many years working for magazines, each of which made sure I knew what they wanted, and what was acceptable - or not. You are correct I now have my own “self-imposed rules”, but so what?

I did look through your photos. You and I have very different ideas on photography. Are your photos edited, or straight from the camera?

I agree completely, 100%.

Wow. I am the opposite. I’ve got a gazillion opportunities to take mostly boring photos of things areound Miami, most of which I have no interest in. I enjoy Colorado infinitely more, and even more so India, and Nepal, and other places in Asia.

Do you have a gallery somewhere, of the photos you’ve taken that you like the most?

Suggestion - check out Smugmug.com, for your best images.

Completely true. When I first came here it was because I was lost in PhotoLab. I didn’t want to use Adobe any more, and PhotoLab seemed much more powerful than DarkTable or RawTherapee.

Much of the “chatting” is how I slowly and gradually learned what (not) to do with PhotoLab. Seeing how others, far more experienced, did things was extremely helpful, after which I tried to do the same things.

Oh well, enough typing - I keep saying I’ll get back to editing my Colorado photos, but I need to get with the program, pun intended. :slight_smile:

If you’re too busy “thinking about other things” to think about exposure settings, I would suggest that you are perhaps thinking about the wrong things. :slight_smile:

Seriously, though, it can seem overwhelming staying on top of camera settings while out shooting, but the only way to get better at it is by doing it more. If you rely on the crutch of Program mode, you have no incentive to ever get better at shooting without it.

It’s true, you don’t need to use film simulations. Probably most people do not. It is simply a stylistic option that is available. But I found two things telling about your attitude: (1) Given your age, it would seem that the majority of your photographic experience would be in the film era, so how could your knowledge of various film stocks possibly be so limited? and (2) Your unwillingness to even consider learning about them is indicative of a general lack of intellectual curiosity that I think is holding you back, and limiting your potential to express yourself fully in an artistic medium. To be clear, your choice to use film simulations or not is not really the issue, as either one is a valid choice, but it put on display your sometimes rigid thinking.

Incidentally, the ultimate output of the image (print versus web) has nothing to do with whether or not to use a film simulation. They’re there only if you want to emulate a certain look, as different emulsions handle color and contrast differently, have different grain patterns, etc. Some people are into that and others aren’t - it’s simply personal preference.

Okay, I’ll bite. Which magazines? How is it that you’ve worked professionally for magazines for “too many years,” presumably in the midst of the film era, and yet don’t get the difference between various film stocks? A comprehensive understanding of film would’ve been a job requirement, no? As would an ability to think about exposure settings , focus, framing, and other things on the fly, all while making adjustments to each. It simply does not make sense for you to have been a professional photographer and yet be so befuddled and vexed by the operation of your camera.

I would guess that you spent your professional life differently, probably as an ophthalmologist, given your apparent well-off lifestyle and annual volunteer trips to an eye hospital overseas. Photography is probably one of many hobbies you’ve dabbled in (I think you’ve said as much yourself). Not that there is anything wrong with any of this, most photographers are hobbyists, myself included. I just don’t understand why you continue to tout professional credentials that are at odds with the questions that you ask and the output that you generate.

To be sure. :wink:

Considering that we’re having this discussion an a DxO forum, I thought it would’ve been obvious, but they’re all RAW images that have been processed with PhotoLab.

Again, rigid thinking, holding you back.

I’ve already provided you a link to 68 of my most recent photos. :slight_smile: And I’m adding more every day, at least one, sometimes two. I use Flickr for storage of the full resolution jpegs, but find that Instagram is better for sharing. I’ve had a SmugMug account in the past but currently don’t see a need for a third web gallery.

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For you, they might well be the wrong things. To me, COMPOSITION and TIMING were the most important things to get right. Everything else can often be adjusted later.

My film experience? Mostly Plus-X, Panatomic X, Try-X, Kodachrome, Ektachrome, Ektachrome IR, and every so often whatever I could find.

Magazines: Radio Control Car Action, Xtreme, RC Car, Race Car, and a few more that I don’t remember. After a number of years doing race reports with photos, they sent me all over the world to cover world championship races - Jakarta, Brazil, Japan, Italy, all over the USA… At first I sucked, but then I learned how to take photos of these radio control cars so they “looked” like the real thing. Everyone else photographed the cars while they were standing, while I shot them from the perspective of a tiny person standing by the track:

As far as I know, I’m the only person to take a photo of the race cars, along with the drivers in one photo…

A better view:
Great Lakes Challenge Race, Toledo, Ohio

Absolutely not - like I said, composition and timing. And I don’t remember being befuddled and vexed by anything. To me, the camera was (and still is) a tool. Oh, and after the races, various manufacturers paid me for the use of the photos in advertising.

Maybe you should re-consider what makes a photograph “good”. Adequate exposure and sharpness and color are expected. Composition and Timing. Look at the photos @Joanna posts here - they go far beyond being “just a photo”. Many people though don’t “get it”. To them, they are literally “just a photo”.

We were talking about “the masters”, in this thread. What brush someone used, or what paint, or what film, and often what camera or lens is irrelevant. It’s the artist inside them that created the beauty, not the tools. If you don’t accept this, read this article:

The Camera Does Not Matter

All that “stuff” is/are tools, and there are lots of choices for tools.

Of all the photos you took and posted in that Instagram link you posted, which photo or photos are you most proud of?

I’m not sure who you’re talking to - in my first post to you, I said that composition was “obviously crucial.” Anyway, you create a false dichotomy - all of these things are important (composition, exposure, etc.).

When did I imply that the camera mattered, or was anything other than a tool? Maybe you really are talking to someone else. :slight_smile:

As an aside, I try to avoid reading anything written by Ken Rockwell.

I don’t know, I’m generally happy enough with all of them (or else I wouldn’t have posted them), but there are of course things I can pick apart about probably each one. In any case, I stand by my assertion that they (for the most part) demonstrate clean and uncluttered composition, even if they don’t resonate with everyone tonally or thematically.

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Yes. You might be the only person. But looking at the picture, you never questioned why nobody else tried to deliver a picture with a weird sized car and some dark men in the shadow behind?

Well said, thank you @MJB

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Well, I disagree with one thing he says…

Why is it that with over 60 years of improvements in cameras, lens sharpness and film grain, resolution and dynamic range that no one has been able to equal what Ansel Adams did back in the 1940s?

He obviously hasn’t seen this shot by Helen…

Moonrise over Tréduder

All work from the Nikon D850 RAW to the finished result using PL5 and printed to 24" x 16" on our Canon Pro 1000 printer, it looks stunning on the wall.

Ha! I’m pretty sure that the people reading that magazine, and being interested in radio control race cars, had no doubts, and the people at the magazine loved it! Most likely you know nothing about 1/8 scale on-road r/c car racing, and chances are, almost nobody in this forum knows about it. Many people doing what I did just took snapshots of toy cars. But the quality of r/c race car photography has continued to improve over the years, and I would have given anything back then for a Nikon Z9. Oh well, it’s all history now. Even if I wanted to race again, my reflexes are way too slow, not that they were anywhere near the level of the better drivers back when I was involved.

Many people feel that way. It’s their loss. Not to mention if I want information on some obscure used lens I’m thinking about buying, nine times out of ten Ken has done a review. He usually writes what he really thinks, and not what advertisers would like to read. He has tech articles on most things the “average” photographer might want to read. I like his photos, I like his articles, and I enjoy his writing style. And I like that he used a writing style that is easy to understand, for average photographers.

I was asking you, the photographer, to select some of your favorites. I get lost and bored going through endless galleries of photos. I was hoping you would select a few, that you especially like.

I suspect that if Ken got to see your photos, and Helen’s photos, he would be VERY impressed, and maybe change what he wrote to:
" Why is it that with over 60 years of improvements in cameras, lens sharpness and film grain, resolution and dynamic range that hardly anyone has been able to equal what [Ansel Adams] did back in the 1940s?" …but Ken was trying to make a point, and exaggerated.

I should add that as much as I enjoy Helen’s photo, I prefer what Ansel created.