Part 2 - Off-Topic - advice, experiences, and examples for images being processed in DxO Photolab

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 4:14pm

Most people here, since they made the choice, and effort, and expense, to use PhotoLab are likely using all those tools, and more, to create the best possible images.

If someone just wants snapshots, there is no need to anything more than put the camera in (A)uto mode, or (P)rogram mode, aim, and shoot.

If the purpose is just to email the photo, most likely it just needs to “look pretty”, possibly a lot more.

Photojournalists have a very different goal, and likely want something as quickly and accurately as possible, unless they work for a major magazine known for its quality images (such as National Geographic).

Every one of the things you mention are important, some more so than others.

And there is also the element of “time”. To get something newsworthy, takes a minute or so. Getting all those considerations adjusted perfectly, is at least many minutes, and more likely a lot more.

Lastly, the purpose of a photo likely dictates how much effort should go into taking the photo. If it’s just to email friends, that’s one thing. If the purpose is to create something enjoyable to view, everything changes. And if it’s to post in a competition, everything likely needs to be absolutely perfect.

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 4:26pm

That is the biggest challenge. Getting everything else correct is “mechanical”, and can be learned over time by almost anyone. “Inspired” is a lot more difficult, and perhaps impossible.

In one of his most famous photographs, Ansel Adams barely got his camera gear set up in time to take one photo. In the time it took to remove the film holder and replace it, “the light was gone”. Timing is important, and recognizing what is most important in a photo is a huge step in the right direction.

Interesting that in all these years, nobody has been able to recreate Ansel Adams’ photo successfully.

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 4:29pm

Speaking of that photo, and knowing all the editing that was done to it, is it even possible today to recreate that photo with a digital camera, and get the same result?

Stenis · April 17, 2024, 4:40pm

@mikemyers
I have tried to explain this for you once before Mike and I see you still haven’t understod at all. Forget about the (A)-mode these configurations I am talking about gives you both a camera smart enough to handle almost anything without your need to interfere. This is not at all about the green-A. Just leave that. Now you have to try to understand what this is all about before you start to argue again from a stand that has nothing to do with modern mirrorless tech.

For the first Auto ISO Min. Shutter Speed works together with A-mode (Aperture Mode) which menas you are deciding which aperture to use. The reason for that is that often aperture is more important to control when setting the character of a shot than the shutter speed.

For the second using AISS doesn’t prevent you from adapt to changing conditions where a faster shutter speed is needed. So it is not at all being out of control because these smart systems are in action.

I have AISS configured on my AEL-button and when pressing that I get a possibility to access an “exposure bias” on my cameras rear aperture/shutterspeed wheel in five steps - Slower, Slow, Standard, Fast and Faster. If I say have my 24-105.mm zoom attached the Standard setting is giving a default according to the old thumb rule of a shutter speed of 1/the current focal length. So at 24mm it will give 1/30 as long as the ceiling of max ISO set is not overrun. In that case exposure is prioritised and at 105mm it might give 1/100 or maybe 1/125 depending of the aperture you have chosen to use.

If I select Fast it gives 1/250 and at Faster it gives /500. Slow will give in my example 1/60 and Slower 1/30. These five bias steps will prepare you for the most. You will mostly be ready leaving it in Standard as a default.

Well says the bird photographer: What about my needs?
Just push the EAL button again and adjust the front wheel of the camera instead and set the AISS to 1/2000 minimum shutter speed and you are set too in no time. Please understand that AISS 1/2000 is not the same as setting the shutter speed hard to 1/2000.
It is way smarter than that.

So, with this configuration you are almost sure, never to be standing there with your trousers at your knees, when that great motif appears.

Mike says in a text above that he was glad for his Joystick - and I say I have never had any use for that with my A7 IV to set those static focusing points in the camera like the guys working in controlled environment in studios use to do. I have no use of the AF-S (Single shot AF) either and do not use anything else than AF-C with tracking since that really fixes everything I need. With an update frequence if 1/120 sec it is always prepared unlike a partly mirror-blinded DSLR.

Instead, it is much more flexible using tracking and flexible focusing points. Just put what you want to focus on and push AF-On or push the shutter button halv way down and recompose. The joystick I now can put to use toggling between Face/Eye Subject (Human, Animal and Bird) to help the AF-system.

During the years I have seen so many examples of camera reviewers not understanding the importance of configuring modern Sony-cameras - always complaining over menu systems they didn’t understand since they never used anything else than Canon or Nikon. Instead, they often have tried to dumb down these mirror-less Porsches in order to make them more like a Volkswagen to feel at home. That is both a pity and a shame because I really think that this prevents them to understand what they might miss.

A lot has changed since NEX 7 and later when the first A7-models were released. Both Canon and Nikon were so stuck in the DSLR-world that they almost totally ignored both Sony,s and Fuji’s mirrorless development for many years and I guess they both regret that now. Just a few years ago Associated Press was looking for new gear or more precise mirrorless gear and found that only Sony had what they were looking for in the A7-camera platform and the GM-lenses. I think that gave both Canon and Nikon a real wakeup call and especially Nikon struggles to get back to where they once were and even Canon have lost its once totally dominant market position.

George · April 17, 2024, 5:19pm

I once saw a documentary about Erwin Olaf, a famous Dutch fotographer. When he had to shoot a group of people he was just talking to them and kept shooting. So he could select the image with the most impact.

George

Joanna · April 17, 2024, 5:21pm

You mean you don’t remember this by Helen ?

Joanna · April 17, 2024, 5:23pm

Indeed, something I also do, with the camera on a tripod just to one side

Stenis · April 17, 2024, 5:32pm

I just lift this as an example that either Mike and you seems to understand at all what this is about:

" * If you don’t understand and control DoF and where to place the point of sharp focus, how do you control the role in composition of making part of the image sharp and the rest blurred, which is so fundamental to composition?"

What is it that you don´t understand Joanna? Shooting with AISS and Real Time Tracking takes a camera set in Aperture Mode. Nothing is preventing the photographer to set the aperture most suitable for the motif and purpose.

we are not talking about Kodak Click 1.0 here but 5.0
I start to realize now why we rapidly are heading for 1000 posts even in this tread #2.

Read my post 880.
If you have read that post I have hard to understand if you still will continue repeating old prejudices and/or misunderstandings about what modern mirrorless tech really is capable of. You still seems to be stuck in a world where certain things just seem to be possible in a totally manual world of DSLR-cameras.

As I wrote there you will be perfectly fine in a mirrorless world because nothing will stop you to dumb down even a Sony A9 III, a Sony A1 or even any of the new Nikon Z. In fact you will not be odd at doing so because that is exactly what many old DSLR-users use to do too.

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 7:48pm

We are not talking about the same thing.
You misunderstood me, probably my fault.
I was talking about the “auto” mode, where the camera does everything, no need for the photographer to do or think, just press the shutter release.

I won’t argue for or against anything else you wrote, as what I see now in this response is something I know nothing about - does your ML camera no longer include the “green” Automatic mode at all?

Sorry for the confusion, that’s not what I was referring to.
Does your camera have an “automatic” setting?
Does it have a (P) “program mode” where it selects both - again, no need to think.

@Joanna’s concerns are real, especially how much depth of field I want, which is entirely dependent on aperture.

I use those settings too - for photos I don’t care about, and just want to take them for someone else.

If my camera is set to 1/2000th of a second, I want my camera to shoot the photo at 1/2000th, not whatever my camera thinks is more appropriate. Usually, ditto, for all the other settings. Auto-ISO takes care of this, when needed, but PhotoLab is so good that even 5000 ISO creates good photos. Or more.

Hate to be using "I’ so much here, as I said I wouldn’t, but I want my camera to do what I tell it to do, and not mess around with things because it thinks it can do better. This is only for me. Everyone else can do as they choose, just as I do.

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 8:19pm

Joanna, I was going to respond to Helen’s photo, but it seems to have vanished??

Lovely, beautiful image, but I prefer what Ansel did:

From all my reading about this photo, the original is NOTHING similar to the end result.

https://www.anseladams.com/a-halloween-story-moonrise-hernandez/

You, and apparently Helen, have the ability to convert a “nothing” image into something spectacular, and apparently Ansel knew enough from the original scene, to realize what he could create starting with that image.

To tell you the truth, I’m lost here, more so than usual. I don’t have the ability to “see” the beauty in the original image that can only come out during editing. I suppose a 4"x5" negative gives a lot more working space than a 24x36 image from our digital devices?

This puts another issue into this whole discussion, and I suppose what many of us think. Ansel did not capture such a beautiful photo, but he realized what he could do to/with it in editing.

Bottom line, I’ve been very wrong about this.

I want to learn how to capture a beautiful image.
But maybe the real challenge is to capture an adequate image from which to create a beautiful image, perhaps in PhotoLab.

It would have to be sharp.
It couldn’t have blown out highlights or black shadows
Obviously, the more pixels the better.

Perhaps the best camera to use would be something with a much larger image size, perhaps a Bronica or Hasselblad?

Just thinking out loud here.

OXiDant · April 17, 2024, 8:38pm

My M43 has a few presets:
-silent mode for birds on the ground.

(MY)A-mode ( so if i am setting menu settings different to play with them and i need to switch back to base i use this)
-4K-mode which holds a few modes in menu.
tracking mode for BIF.

I stickered the function keys layout and this preset on the bay of the flipscreen just behind the screen so i can remember which and what to turn to if i need something quick.

AF-C mode or AE/AF lock backbutton
IBIS and OIS dual ii active
iISo Auto max 3200iso ( 6400 is just on edge of clif from decline IQ)
Mostly in A-mode making my a habit to return Aperture every time to F4 ( my 12-60mm is a f2.8-f4 so then i don’t have change of Aperture wile zooming and the fastes light gab.
i can go wider or narrower if needed by wheel.

with this base settings i can walk around with my family take images if i like and stil keep up with there space ( more or less they have to wait sometimes but not for long)
my main way of getting memory images of something. So i use the bennefits of modern smart camerabody’s to gain time.

if i see something very interesting or i have time to make more effort of a scene or subject i can use filters/ manual modes/ tripods / macro extendrings/ 4k focus stacking and all other techniques to my purpose on getting a photograph.

That’s what i try to say. understanding how to drive a car on two wheels and two wheels in the air in full control and balance doesn’t mean you have drive al the time that way.
mainly on four wheels and cruizecrontrol active and some music out of speakers with a airco on 20 celcius is often much nicer for you and your companion…

Don’t mistake snapping mode for iqnorance mode that’s not the same
iqnorance mode is Ai-mode then the camera does it’s thing and you must only point and click.

mikemyers · April 17, 2024, 8:48pm

I apologize; thought that was what you meant.
Press button, camera takes photo.

OXiDant · April 17, 2024, 9:49pm

Accepted, no need to apologize.
I tried to make a point of view on modern camera’s and the use of them at this time and moment.
Ease of comfort doesn’t always mean the same as being lazy.
There is no fault in using modern AI technique as long as you can turn back to manual any time you like to.
Like driving electric automatic (Tesla) and you own a stickdriving licence.
As long as you maintane your stickdriving skills and manual driving technique’s there’s nothing wrong with a fully automated Tesla for day to day driving.
Depending on AI of that car and NOT be able to override and take over if needed THAT’s wrong and bad. Not the use of those modern technique’s.

I hope i am clear now.

Joanna · April 18, 2024, 7:54am

Greetings. I think you are reading too much into what I am writing

I am not prejudiced against mirrorless - just simply, I don’t need one at the moment because I still have a perfectly serviceable and virtually new D850, with just over 2,500 shutter activations and it would be a total waste of money for me to move to a mirrorless, especially because it would mean either having to use all my F lenses via an adapter, or replace them all with Z lenses - neither of which I personally want to do.

If other folks want to use mirrorless, then, fine. I would also use one if a generous benefactor were to give me a kit equivalent to what I already have. I don’t hate mirrorless.

But, from my experience of teaching others how to take better pictures, the biggest obstacle I encounter for any digital camera is the preponderance of menus that one is expected to wade through in order to get that camera to do the simplest of tasks. Then, for the next shot, one needs to find yet another menu item to tweak. To my mind, it’s all too complicated and confusing And I think that is one of the main problems that @mikemyers has had.

To me, the process of taking a photograph should be simple - convoluted menus take away that simplicity.

Yes, if you can work out which combination of menu options makes a certain task easier, why not use it? But, for what I do, 60 years of ingrained knowledge of how to manipulate the exposure triangle is faster and easier than burrowing into the menu system. And I find many of my pupils are in the same position. They got into such a muddle over which options to choose that they switched back to fully automatic, preferring to rely on post-processing to “fix” what went wrong.

Heck, I still haven’t worked out the best options for focusing on moving targets, simply because the menu options aren’t clear and it seems I would need to decide on which options, depending on what type of movement I anticipate shooting. Of course, there’s always the fact that I very rarely shoot moving subjects, so I don’t get the chance to practise. But then changing options for that then means I would have to remember how to change the options back.

I am, primarily, a landscape photographer, but I also like making abstract or industrial images…

Can you honestly tell me I would benefit from spending out thousands of €€€ on mirrorless technology for this kind of photography?

George · April 18, 2024, 8:30am

You won’t see any difference. It’s the same lens and the same size.
But in general: if you’re satisfied why change. I did for it added image stabilisation to my non VR lenses.

George

JoJu · April 18, 2024, 9:12am

Wir haben deinen neuen Beitrag erhalten. Dieser muss jedoch von einem Moderator genehmigt werden, bevor er angezeigt wird. Bitte habe etwas Geduld.

Du hast 1 verbleibenden Beitrag.

Interesting. Instead of contacting me and telling me why a post needs to be approved, they just shoot in the back.

Edit: I guess, it was the sh…t part in the post. Thanks, mod, for approving it anyway.

JoJu · April 18, 2024, 10:04am

Agreed. That happens because the devs of the menus usually only think along the line “how can I add or multiply functions without getting punished for subtracting a then no longer necessary function?”. At best, they learnt how to add and sort functions. But only in their own view. It appears no one is in a photog’s shoes and even if, he will look at it in a “possible code?” way. And since the marketing companies believe in numbers, they only get super crazy excited by “adding” more features to their lists. Quality? Who cares? Quantity of features? YEEEEEAAAAHH!

Few menus are less complicated and very few cameras have a clear separation between hard- and software “buttons”. To me Nikon is one of the worst (they even included AF micro-adjustments in their mirrorless systems), followed by Sony. I hear Olympus also have enough sub-menus to stack on a dozen of LCDs and still not seeing all. I don’t know all various manufacturer menus, but they share in common that they are not comprehensive, self-explaining and basically all over the place. More simplicity is apparently strictly forbidden and leads to death sentence.

Each company has a list of “poorly executed functions and opposite of logical interaction between hardware and software”, as they don’t seem to think from the result backwards to the set-up. And there’s only so much space to put in functions and still keep the whole thing operative. Instead of cleaning up, a paradoxon happens: Introducing “new” functions is progress, keeping the old shit in place is “making the usability easier for victims / users of the predecessor” just because the devs have no clue who is using what and why.

But your LF camera also has shortcomings. Just not in the menus, but in the hardware, dictated by “balancing weight against comfortable use”.

For one of your images there’s a prediction function in some LV settings (the long exposure) which gives an idea of the outcome, but the moment the image happens it will be a different result. Also, some cameras not only have a LV but also kind of recording monitor. I can stop a long time exposure when I see on the monitor “now it’s good”. Not on DSLR LV (to my knowledge), more on the systems of manufacturers being longer in mirrorless business than Nikon and Canon.

Joanna · April 18, 2024, 12:13pm

I worked as a software design and coding consultant for about 30 years and the biggest problem I saw was that, even if the coders foresaw problems, it was often managers that insisted that their “vision” was right.

Yes, I found that, tried it and ended up ignoring it because it didn’t seem necessary.

Ah yes - Olympus menus. What can I say but that even I could not get to the bottom of their menus and realised why the club members who had been conned into buying them were getting frustrated and staying in everything automatic. I was once in a camera shop when a hapless woman was being sold an Olympus. The salesman’s pitch was basically - “it’s so simple to use, just leave everything in automatic”. She would have been better off with a phone camera.

Actually, there really isn’t that much difference in weight between my Ebony SV45Te and my Nikon D850 with battery grip - both around 1.6kg without lens.

Of course, that’s not taking into account the backpack for lenses, filters, film holders etc. Although we used the Fuji Quickload system, with only one single-sided holder and single sheets of film in light-tight envelopes.

But the answer is simple - if the subject can’t be photographed from within 5O metres from the car, it isn’t picturesque

The D850 has a 10 shot multi-exposure mode, so I tend to take multiple exposures, around 5 seconds each, each time the wave breaks. The camera combines them for me into a single file.

JoJu · April 18, 2024, 1:01pm

Last days I read in biography of Steve Jobs. I don’t think it’s bad if managers have their visions - per se. But some, if not ,most managers confuse “talking about visions” with “having a good one, and the right conversation partners as well”.

I was talking (just not loud enough, should say “I was thinking”) about the time consuming set-up and that some settings are harder on an Ebnony than on a Sinar or Linhof or… design concepts of LF cameras vary. Today I see that with two T/S lenses (and tried also a Nikon 19 mm, but no Schneider PC): Canon and Hartblei vary very much, the Hartblei is more flexible, I’d say,. but needs a lot more thinking in advance and once setup, it’s not super-easy to change.

Clever girl! Will keep that in mind next time when I walk 16 km through a Gorge. Simply not picturesque enough…

It’s looks better than this attempt:

The fp-L goes down to ISO 6 and also combines single shots. Good for when I forgot an ND filter (which I normally do…) but movement of bright objects like this ship doing a U-turn on the river brings out "the truth.

With less movement it’s ok.

mikemyers · April 18, 2024, 2:36pm

They probably thought it was obvious. Talk nicely to other posters, most of whom are their customers.

You and I went through that - the D780 has more menu listings than I can count. I gave up, and you helped me, essentially by ignoring a huge number of them. There’s probably a logical reason why they are there (most likely from feedback from users), but for me, it was overwhelming. By contrast, my 18 or so years old D3 has a quite simple listing for menus, and even in the “Custom Setting Menu”, everything seemed obvious. I understand it has only 12 megapixels, and less dynamic range, but for most things I shoot, it is excellent - not that I would try to shoot something to make into a mural, when my newer Nikon has far better specifications.

When you and I went through my menus from the D780, just about all those (to me, bizarre) functions were turned off. All of Nikon’s efforts to help people get good images are now “off”. It is now set like my D750 before it (which you helped me simplify the menus) and my D3 (which is already simplified).

Going back through my 70 years of cameras, first it was box cameras, which led to 35mm cameras, and 2 1/4 twin lens reflex, along with what I call huge “press cameras”, some like your LF camera. The 35mm cameras were rangefinder, until the Nikon F changed the world (although Pentax Exacta, and Alpa, and many more) already had SLR cameras). SLR took over most of the world around me, until the next huge change, to Digital. It’s fun to look at all the digital cameras as they evolved. I remember on my first digital camera, I tried to edit an image to see one pixel (not knowing what the heck I was doing), and got a single dot! What the ??? …but over time, it got better, and I got an Olympus E-10 with I think 4 megapixels??, a huge lens which could make huge enlargements. Then there were more, and more, and more DSLR’s, as they improved. Then ML cameras came out, and the public was told how necessary they are, that a gazillion people dumped their old gear to buy one - an then replaced their old lenses with new ones. The camera industry had been suffering, and the best thing ML did was to get people to buy much more.

My question, is what comes next, when people dump their ML stuff in favor of the next best thing…?

I’m sure some people here have been involved in photography to be aware of all these changes over time. When enough people have bought ML, the camera companies will release something new, that causes people to want to dump their ML just as has happened over and over in the past.

Sorry for the diversion, but back to Menus. Fortunately, there are books and videos that I have found which explain what every single menu choice is, and does, which can also be used to figure out what’s important to the user, and what can be ignored.

@Joanna, even though I have since learned what each of the menu choices are for, thanks to you I have already ignored the ones that you suggested I ignore, and I think/hope that each of them that “edits” an image is now safely turned off, along with any menu choices that start with the four letter word “auto”. If a photo comes out crappy, I only have myself to blame, not the camera.