Lovely photo, in every way imaginable, and the only “hi-tech” you used was your brain. Verticals remain vertical, there is detail everywhere, and the composition and timing is awesome. Everything leads the eye into the photo, and then angles off to the top left to the building.
So much talk lately about high-tech stuff, but all of it together fades into insignificance compared to the main reason for such a quality image, the photographer. I suspect you could have this printed ten feet tall, and it would look even more inspiring, with people being able to see more of the details.
It’s partly the difference between taking 10 full minutes to take ONE photo, and someone else taking 1 minute and capturing 10 (or more) images.
It’s depressing that so many people want to discuss technical stuff, and so few want to post a beautiful image they captured, and how they made it so beautiful.
Interesting challenge.
Give me a week or two to submit something…
Stenis
(Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))
873
I think many people that criticise the tech discussions and promote a focus on “the picture with big P” totally have missed what really have happened the last three-four years.
Finally it has been possible to configure my cameras with really smart exposure support like Auto ISO Min. Shutter Speed and together with the smart hierachic Real Time Tracking it has finally relieved me from thinking about tech at all when framing.
In fact now adays I can focus totally on timing and composition. That was impossible before at least for me. Together with the tools in for example Capture One I for the first time in my life feels that I’m in control instead of the circumstaces.
I think both @Joanna and @mikemyers misunderstood a few things here.
Spraying qnd praying is a mindset not techrelated thing.
The only advantage of new camera’s is the succesrate of focussed and in the balpark exposed image’s due there AI in the body.
In filmday’s spraying and praying was expensive and it could end up with much less holiday photo’s then expected on the way home.
Now you can check and respray if you feel like it. Delete in your hotelroom or on a terras with a pint or coffee all the misfits and errors on the same day.
As @Stenis wrote if you let the camera help out and assist your timing, and seeing interesting things to get in a frame are at a higher level because the camera is ready at most things to deliver. Aka you have móre time to think about the what and how to photograph.
Experiment more on the spot and adjust on the spot.
So snapping along isn’t a gear thing it’s a mindset thing.
Of course you are correct, but some gear makes “snapping and praying” easier to do. The more the camera automation does, the less the photographer has to be bothered with/by all those details. You are right, in that not everyone wants to be bothered with all those details and choices. Camera manufacturers know this - what is “smarter”, the camera, or the photographer?
On the other hand, if the choice is capturing one image, or 25 images of the same thing, one out of those 25 might be better than had the photographer just taken one image? Expressions change so quickly, and eyes blink every so often, so just one image might not be best?
What I understand is that however technically perfect in image is, it is worth nothing if it is not inspired and/or constructed to give something for the technical of things to work with.
However, if you don’t know, at least, the basics of photographic technique, you are never going to be able to realise the image you have in your head in the camera.
Please don’t take this as antagonistic, it is meant with goodwill…
If you don’t understand and control DoF and where to place the point of sharp focus, how do you control the role in composition of making part of the image sharp and the rest blurred, which is so fundamental to composition?
If you are taking a moving subject, how do you decide whether to pan to follow the subject and motion blur the background or, alternatively, have something like moving water come out as droplets, jets or silk?
How do you determine the exposure to avoid burnt out highlights when the camera takes an average exposure for the whole subject?
If you are shooting a high dynamic range scene, how do you ensure not having either blocked shadows or blown highlights?
If you don’t realise that high ISO restricts dynamic range, how do you know where to place an exposure to cover that range?
Automatisms in cameras might seem all well and good but, how do you tell the camera the look and feel that you desire? Don’t tell me, you try, try and try again until it gets almost like you hoped but, not necessarily, what you really wanted.
I have just been introduced to someone new to our photo club, who has a great eye for an image but who is totally stuck on how to get the rendering she really wants. I have been asked to help and the first thing I will be showing her is to ignore all the fancy schmancy menu items and take control of her camera, first in semi-automatic and eventually fully manual mode.
Maybe it sounds weird to you but, after finding and framing the shot, having to set up the camera, sometimes slowly and deliberately allows me that all important thinking time, which can lead to deeper consideration of things like composition and framing
Most people here, since they made the choice, and effort, and expense, to use PhotoLab are likely using all those tools, and more, to create the best possible images.
If someone just wants snapshots, there is no need to anything more than put the camera in (A)uto mode, or (P)rogram mode, aim, and shoot.
If the purpose is just to email the photo, most likely it just needs to “look pretty”, possibly a lot more.
Photojournalists have a very different goal, and likely want something as quickly and accurately as possible, unless they work for a major magazine known for its quality images (such as National Geographic).
Every one of the things you mention are important, some more so than others.
And there is also the element of “time”. To get something newsworthy, takes a minute or so. Getting all those considerations adjusted perfectly, is at least many minutes, and more likely a lot more.
Lastly, the purpose of a photo likely dictates how much effort should go into taking the photo. If it’s just to email friends, that’s one thing. If the purpose is to create something enjoyable to view, everything changes. And if it’s to post in a competition, everything likely needs to be absolutely perfect.
That is the biggest challenge. Getting everything else correct is “mechanical”, and can be learned over time by almost anyone. “Inspired” is a lot more difficult, and perhaps impossible.
In one of his most famous photographs, Ansel Adams barely got his camera gear set up in time to take one photo. In the time it took to remove the film holder and replace it, “the light was gone”. Timing is important, and recognizing what is most important in a photo is a huge step in the right direction.
Interesting that in all these years, nobody has been able to recreate Ansel Adams’ photo successfully.
Speaking of that photo, and knowing all the editing that was done to it, is it even possible today to recreate that photo with a digital camera, and get the same result?
Stenis
(Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))
881
@mikemyers
I have tried to explain this for you once before Mike and I see you still haven’t understod at all. Forget about the (A)-mode these configurations I am talking about gives you both a camera smart enough to handle almost anything without your need to interfere. This is not at all about the green-A. Just leave that. Now you have to try to understand what this is all about before you start to argue again from a stand that has nothing to do with modern mirrorless tech.
For the first Auto ISO Min. Shutter Speed works together with A-mode (Aperture Mode) which menas you are deciding which aperture to use. The reason for that is that often aperture is more important to control when setting the character of a shot than the shutter speed.
For the second using AISS doesn’t prevent you from adapt to changing conditions where a faster shutter speed is needed. So it is not at all being out of control because these smart systems are in action.
I have AISS configured on my AEL-button and when pressing that I get a possibility to access an “exposure bias” on my cameras rear aperture/shutterspeed wheel in five steps - Slower, Slow, Standard, Fast and Faster. If I say have my 24-105.mm zoom attached the Standard setting is giving a default according to the old thumb rule of a shutter speed of 1/the current focal length. So at 24mm it will give 1/30 as long as the ceiling of max ISO set is not overrun. In that case exposure is prioritised and at 105mm it might give 1/100 or maybe 1/125 depending of the aperture you have chosen to use.
If I select Fast it gives 1/250 and at Faster it gives /500. Slow will give in my example 1/60 and Slower 1/30. These five bias steps will prepare you for the most. You will mostly be ready leaving it in Standard as a default.
Well says the bird photographer: What about my needs?
Just push the EAL button again and adjust the front wheel of the camera instead and set the AISS to 1/2000 minimum shutter speed and you are set too in no time. Please understand that AISS 1/2000 is not the same as setting the shutter speed hard to 1/2000.
It is way smarter than that.
So, with this configuration you are almost sure, never to be standing there with your trousers at your knees, when that great motif appears.
Mike says in a text above that he was glad for his Joystick - and I say I have never had any use for that with my A7 IV to set those static focusing points in the camera like the guys working in controlled environment in studios use to do. I have no use of the AF-S (Single shot AF) either and do not use anything else than AF-C with tracking since that really fixes everything I need. With an update frequence if 1/120 sec it is always prepared unlike a partly mirror-blinded DSLR.
Instead, it is much more flexible using tracking and flexible focusing points. Just put what you want to focus on and push AF-On or push the shutter button halv way down and recompose. The joystick I now can put to use toggling between Face/Eye Subject (Human, Animal and Bird) to help the AF-system.
During the years I have seen so many examples of camera reviewers not understanding the importance of configuring modern Sony-cameras - always complaining over menu systems they didn’t understand since they never used anything else than Canon or Nikon. Instead, they often have tried to dumb down these mirror-less Porsches in order to make them more like a Volkswagen to feel at home. That is both a pity and a shame because I really think that this prevents them to understand what they might miss.
A lot has changed since NEX 7 and later when the first A7-models were released. Both Canon and Nikon were so stuck in the DSLR-world that they almost totally ignored both Sony,s and Fuji’s mirrorless development for many years and I guess they both regret that now. Just a few years ago Associated Press was looking for new gear or more precise mirrorless gear and found that only Sony had what they were looking for in the A7-camera platform and the GM-lenses. I think that gave both Canon and Nikon a real wakeup call and especially Nikon struggles to get back to where they once were and even Canon have lost its once totally dominant market position.
I once saw a documentary about Erwin Olaf, a famous Dutch fotographer. When he had to shoot a group of people he was just talking to them and kept shooting. So he could select the image with the most impact.
Indeed, something I also do, with the camera on a tripod just to one side
Stenis
(Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))
885
I just lift this as an example that either Mike and you seems to understand at all what this is about:
" * If you don’t understand and control DoF and where to place the point of sharp focus, how do you control the role in composition of making part of the image sharp and the rest blurred, which is so fundamental to composition?"
What is it that you don´t understand Joanna? Shooting with AISS and Real Time Tracking takes a camera set in Aperture Mode. Nothing is preventing the photographer to set the aperture most suitable for the motif and purpose.
we are not talking about Kodak Click 1.0 here but 5.0
I start to realize now why we rapidly are heading for 1000 posts even in this tread #2.
Read my post 880.
If you have read that post I have hard to understand if you still will continue repeating old prejudices and/or misunderstandings about what modern mirrorless tech really is capable of. You still seems to be stuck in a world where certain things just seem to be possible in a totally manual world of DSLR-cameras.
As I wrote there you will be perfectly fine in a mirrorless world because nothing will stop you to dumb down even a Sony A9 III, a Sony A1 or even any of the new Nikon Z. In fact you will not be odd at doing so because that is exactly what many old DSLR-users use to do too.
We are not talking about the same thing.
You misunderstood me, probably my fault.
I was talking about the “auto” mode, where the camera does everything, no need for the photographer to do or think, just press the shutter release.
I won’t argue for or against anything else you wrote, as what I see now in this response is something I know nothing about - does your ML camera no longer include the “green” Automatic mode at all?
Sorry for the confusion, that’s not what I was referring to.
Does your camera have an “automatic” setting?
Does it have a (P) “program mode” where it selects both - again, no need to think.
@Joanna’s concerns are real, especially how much depth of field I want, which is entirely dependent on aperture.
I use those settings too - for photos I don’t care about, and just want to take them for someone else.
If my camera is set to 1/2000th of a second, I want my camera to shoot the photo at 1/2000th, not whatever my camera thinks is more appropriate. Usually, ditto, for all the other settings. Auto-ISO takes care of this, when needed, but PhotoLab is so good that even 5000 ISO creates good photos. Or more.
Hate to be using "I’ so much here, as I said I wouldn’t, but I want my camera to do what I tell it to do, and not mess around with things because it thinks it can do better. This is only for me. Everyone else can do as they choose, just as I do.
You, and apparently Helen, have the ability to convert a “nothing” image into something spectacular, and apparently Ansel knew enough from the original scene, to realize what he could create starting with that image.
To tell you the truth, I’m lost here, more so than usual. I don’t have the ability to “see” the beauty in the original image that can only come out during editing. I suppose a 4"x5" negative gives a lot more working space than a 24x36 image from our digital devices?
This puts another issue into this whole discussion, and I suppose what many of us think. Ansel did not capture such a beautiful photo, but he realized what he could do to/with it in editing.
Bottom line, I’ve been very wrong about this.
I want to learn how to capture a beautiful image.
But maybe the real challenge is to capture an adequate image from which to create a beautiful image, perhaps in PhotoLab.
It would have to be sharp.
It couldn’t have blown out highlights or black shadows
Obviously, the more pixels the better.
Perhaps the best camera to use would be something with a much larger image size, perhaps a Bronica or Hasselblad?
My M43 has a few presets:
-silent mode for birds on the ground.
(MY)A-mode ( so if i am setting menu settings different to play with them and i need to switch back to base i use this)
-4K-mode which holds a few modes in menu.
tracking mode for BIF.
I stickered the function keys layout and this preset on the bay of the flipscreen just behind the screen so i can remember which and what to turn to if i need something quick.
AF-C mode or AE/AF lock backbutton
IBIS and OIS dual ii active
iISo Auto max 3200iso ( 6400 is just on edge of clif from decline IQ)
Mostly in A-mode making my a habit to return Aperture every time to F4 ( my 12-60mm is a f2.8-f4 so then i don’t have change of Aperture wile zooming and the fastes light gab.
i can go wider or narrower if needed by wheel.
with this base settings i can walk around with my family take images if i like and stil keep up with there space ( more or less they have to wait sometimes but not for long)
my main way of getting memory images of something. So i use the bennefits of modern smart camerabody’s to gain time.
if i see something very interesting or i have time to make more effort of a scene or subject i can use filters/ manual modes/ tripods / macro extendrings/ 4k focus stacking and all other techniques to my purpose on getting a photograph.
That’s what i try to say. understanding how to drive a car on two wheels and two wheels in the air in full control and balance doesn’t mean you have drive al the time that way.
mainly on four wheels and cruizecrontrol active and some music out of speakers with a airco on 20 celcius is often much nicer for you and your companion…
Don’t mistake snapping mode for iqnorance mode that’s not the same
iqnorance mode is Ai-mode then the camera does it’s thing and you must only point and click.
Accepted, no need to apologize.
I tried to make a point of view on modern camera’s and the use of them at this time and moment.
Ease of comfort doesn’t always mean the same as being lazy.
There is no fault in using modern AI technique as long as you can turn back to manual any time you like to.
Like driving electric automatic (Tesla) and you own a stickdriving licence.
As long as you maintane your stickdriving skills and manual driving technique’s there’s nothing wrong with a fully automated Tesla for day to day driving.
Depending on AI of that car and NOT be able to override and take over if needed THAT’s wrong and bad. Not the use of those modern technique’s.
Greetings. I think you are reading too much into what I am writing
I am not prejudiced against mirrorless - just simply, I don’t need one at the moment because I still have a perfectly serviceable and virtually new D850, with just over 2,500 shutter activations and it would be a total waste of money for me to move to a mirrorless, especially because it would mean either having to use all my F lenses via an adapter, or replace them all with Z lenses - neither of which I personally want to do.
If other folks want to use mirrorless, then, fine. I would also use one if a generous benefactor were to give me a kit equivalent to what I already have. I don’t hate mirrorless.
But, from my experience of teaching others how to take better pictures, the biggest obstacle I encounter for any digital camera is the preponderance of menus that one is expected to wade through in order to get that camera to do the simplest of tasks. Then, for the next shot, one needs to find yet another menu item to tweak. To my mind, it’s all too complicated and confusing And I think that is one of the main problems that @mikemyers has had.
To me, the process of taking a photograph should be simple - convoluted menus take away that simplicity.
Yes, if you can work out which combination of menu options makes a certain task easier, why not use it? But, for what I do, 60 years of ingrained knowledge of how to manipulate the exposure triangle is faster and easier than burrowing into the menu system. And I find many of my pupils are in the same position. They got into such a muddle over which options to choose that they switched back to fully automatic, preferring to rely on post-processing to “fix” what went wrong.
Heck, I still haven’t worked out the best options for focusing on moving targets, simply because the menu options aren’t clear and it seems I would need to decide on which options, depending on what type of movement I anticipate shooting. Of course, there’s always the fact that I very rarely shoot moving subjects, so I don’t get the chance to practise. But then changing options for that then means I would have to remember how to change the options back.
I am, primarily, a landscape photographer, but I also like making abstract or industrial images…
And I think that is one of the main problems that 
