I use a third party picture browser (BreezeBrowser). When I open a picture in PL8 (and previous PL versions) for RAW processing (Windows 11), I can create a virtual copy in the “Customize mode”. To remove a virtual copy, it seems only possible to go to the “Photolibrary mode”, and browse the folder of the picture and delete the VC. The request is to allow to delete a virtual copy without making this work around.
No, that’s incorrect - - See here (associated with your original post).
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In my post I said the editing is launched from a third party browser.
If you edit a RAW file with command line (RAW file as an example):
c:\Program Files\DxO\DxO PhotoLab 8>DxO.PhotoLab.exe “D:\My pictures\20240520\P1308714.RW2”
then you will see that you can create virtual copies for the P1308714.RW2, but not delete these VC.
That what my feature request is about.
@pbar I just did some tests which appeared to show that your post was incorrect, BUT I was accessing the directory directly by browsing with PL831.
Edit:- To cut a long story short (contained in “excruciating detail” below) it is because the VC is created for an ‘External Selection’ image please see Remove virtual copy? - #30 by BHAYT for additional information and for some reason DxPL decides that entries for an ‘External Selection’ cannot be ‘Removed’.
So I downloaded a copy of BreezeBrowser (it is way too expensive for what it offers, I believe XnViewMP offers way better value for money but …) but back to the point I attempted to pass a collection of images to from Breezebrowser and only one made it!
This is a problem with FastStone Image browser when only the last image makes it to DxPL. in the case of BreezeBrowser, two attempts at passing a group of images failed and I just wound up with one in DxPL and a different one each time!?
Ignoring BreezeBrowsers foibles, and my prejudices, you appear to be correct when the images are part of an 'External Collection 'i.e. I cannot remove a VC in either the ‘PhotoLibrary’ or the ‘Customize’ screens.
I also used FastRawViewer to pass the entire directory and that worked fine but also ran into the same problem.
In ‘PhotoLibrary’:-
In ‘Customize’:-
So with ‘External Selections’ it appears to be impossible to ‘Remove’ a VC or the [M]aster
@John-M I am at a loss to explain this so I created a ‘Project’ (‘External Selections’ are “sort of” a ‘Project’) from the images in the directory.
Attempting to delete the VC (and the [M]aster from the project is O.K.
@pbar Please make a support request and as why this “bug” is present.
PS:- Peter, BreezeBrowser’s (BB) Raw viewing is excruciatingly slow even on my 5900X, as it is with FastStone (FSIV), but way faster with FastRawViewer (FRV).
But neither FastStone nor FastRawViewer have the metadata handling of BB but XnViewMP does, I believe, and both XnViewMP and FRV can pass large numbers of images to DxPL at the same time (up to about 350 according to some tests I did along time ago).
However, your workflow is based around BB and none of the programs get round the issue you reported.
PPS:-
There is a two fields difference between a ‘Project’ and an ‘External Collection’
and DxPL is prepared to let me delete from the ‘Project’ but not from the ‘External Selection’
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Ahh, OK … that wasn’t obvious to me from wording of your explanation of the issue.
@John-M When I tested it as a normal directory and everything was O.K. I re-read the original and discovered the use of BreezeBrowser which led to my conclusion that it is because the item is designated as an ‘External selection’, which are also stored in the ‘Projects’ Table.
Why DxO chose to make ‘Externals Selections’ a special case I do not know but just changing one field turns it into a ‘Project’ and the normal deletions become possible!?
I am sure it is a “feature” because someone thought it should work that way for ‘External selections’ but I consider it an unnecessary “feature”?
@pbar Peter the minus of your work-around is that you will add all the images in the directory to the DxPL database and that kind of “defeats” the notion of being selective in the first place.
In your case that might not add too much data to the database but if a user is using that technique to select image(s) from a large directory then it defeats (to an extent) the very idea of being selective in the first place!
The following is a potential workaround but will leave the database with some detritus, however it does protect the original images from any “accidental” deletes.
- Select the image(s) to be processed by PhotoLab and pass then to DxPL, if more than one image can actually be passed by the external program.
- Create a ‘Project’ from the image(s)
- Do all VC creation and editing in the ‘Project’, never in the ‘External Selection’.
- This allows deletion of the VCs and even the [M]aster (in the ‘Project’) without any risk of deleting the original image, along with its DOP and xmp sidecar etc .and doesn’t load entire directories into the database.
So we have
The original image
The ‘Project’ after adding two VCs
Now any ‘Project’ entry can be deleted even the [M]aster can be deleted while leaving the VCs, because the [M]aster is still intact in the 'External selection!?
@John-M and @pbar Arguably the “rule” might exist because the external image is open (might be open )in the program that submitted the image(s) to DxPL in the first place.
However, while that might be appropriate for the [M]aster it should still be possible to ‘Remove’ the VCs because they are an element of DxPL only.
That was my reasoning as well indeed
@pbar Peter my assertion was wrong and there is no reason why we shouldn’t be able to delete all entries in an ‘External selection’ because although it uses the images from a directory you can simply delete the [M]aster entry and it should work as it normally does (remove the [M]aster and all the VCs) but only on the database, leaving the image directory alone.
I have created a topic PL831 External Selection Versus VC Deletion or rather NO DELETION and referred to your topic and the other one you posted in and will make a support submission to DxO Support.
However, the “feature” has been present since OpticsPro 11 and the next release after OpticsPro 11 was PhotoLab 1. Why the software engineer chose to create that rule I simply cannot say.
I quite like my workaround, not that I am biased, because my old way of using OpticsPro/PhotoLab was to use FastStone Image Viewer to submit a “representative” image to DxPL and refine it and then load the whole directory and apply the new edit to all the images.
This was necessary because FSIV actually sends all the images I select but only the last one ever makes it into DxPL!?
But I have access to other browsers and FastRawViewer will allow ‘Rating’ and ‘Colour Label’ setting (and ‘Description’ I believe) but no other Metadata. XnViewMP seems to have similar Metadata screens to BreezeBrowser and can submit more images to DxPL and I currently have a subscription to Zoner and we can all use Adobe Bridge.
Please make a support request and try my workaround to see if it can help fit your needs.
Regards
Bryan
Hi Bryan,
Thanks a lot. Your proposal is a very convenient work around.
Peter
@pbar Peter it is a workaround rather than a fix and I must admit that I am at a loss to understand why someone chose to create this “feature”!?
However, I am glad you brought it to our (my) attention and I did some more work alongside @Wolfgang and wrote my findings here Remove virtual copy? - #35 by BHAYT.
Using ‘Projects’ for “temporary” work should be entirely safe (famous last words) but ‘Projects’ are always at risk to the loss of the database, accidental or deliberate, on both the Mac and Windows versions of DxPL.
When I say ‘Projects’ that also includes ‘External Selections’, both reside in the same structure, as I have explained somewhere and probably many times, and the data is not contained in the DOP, so no recovery, other than a database backup.
But a database backup will lose any work you have undertaken between the backup you restore and the work you did later, albeit all but ‘Projects’ (including ‘External Selections’) data (and ‘Advanced History’ on the Mac) is contained in the latest DOP.
Regards
Bryan
FYI. Triggered by this discussion, I did some experiments with the indexing of folders, and here are my unexpected observations (in short, as out of the scope of this topic):
- Indexing a folder made changes to my .XMP files
- Indexing a folder made changes to the metadata of some .jpeg files
I investigated these changes and these modifications seem not to harm. It does not worry me too much.
Unfortunately, there is no re-indexing function AFAIK to clean up the database when picture folders and files are removed outside PL. This is for me an important missing feature, because deleting and rebuilding the database looses the projects. I will probably launch a new topic for this.
@pbar Peter if you stop writing compelling posts like the one above then I might finish coding some of the things I have started (but not finished) already.
One still in the planning stage is an unload program for ‘Projects’. Obviously that then needs a reload counterpart.
My biggest concern with the reload is that it will mean updating a user database and my concern is then not what I know about the product but what I don’t know!
The first part of this is something I have promised to do for some time which is to turn the database into a report showing every file contained with its full name, i.e. effectively turning the ‘Folders’ structure into a full list of directory names.
That can then be verified programmatically with their existence on disk.
Then the ‘Items’ (actually ‘Sources’) entries associated with any missing ‘Folders’ can be identified and reported (and/or deleted). But deletion then has implications for any ‘Keywords’ and ‘Projects’ in turn related to the ‘Items’ which are related to the missing’ Folders’.
But first things first, I will try to get a simple, I was about to say basic (PureBasic actually), program that can report on the ‘Folders’, which is the starting point for all of the above, written, so it can be tested by anyone that cares to try it out.
If I keep it to less than 800 lines I can issue the code alongside the code file for any concerned about any hidden “features”, i.e. PureBasic offers a trial version with unlimited timescale but a limit of 800 lines of code.
The proper version will exceed that size, as many of my (unfinished) programs already do but a basic list program should be doable within that size limitation.
… which is why I don’t use it anymore
→ I don’t like my jpeg files, taken parallel with raw, to be altered. ←
That is, I purely rely on the dop-sidecar files.
note
Some people might think, “Oh my God, that’s crazy!” but I don’t use projects, external selections, or keywords. – Instead, I use a very simple workflow ( → see here… / scroll to the end ) and leverage database & cache to speed up PL.
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