Sorry Mike, this is a definite no-no. Too complex and messy.
I managed to separate out the petals from the leaves…
… but it’s not something I’m in any way proud of.
That really depends on the subject. In this case, I and Helen would say no.
Isolating the flower from its background (still life) works better.
Mike, a suggestion, shoot in color and if you like the photo, leave it in color. If you don’t like the photo in color and you can’t do anything else with it, then see if you can get something out of it in black and white. If neither works, then throw it in the garbage can. A professional once told me that deleting is the most difficult and time-consuming thing to do and takes a lot of courage, but it gives you room for something worthwhile.
Mike, it’s difficult to strip color mentally, and takes a while to “see in B&W”.
Perhaps a viewing filter would help:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/330726-REG/Tiffen_BWVF_1_Black_and_White.html
Oops, DxO needs a “flush button”.
Yep, you and Helen are right, too confusabobbled.
I sort of disagree. It’s easier to shoot I color, and whether I keep or delete is done as I’m ingesting images from PhotoLab.
I would love to pretend I’m Ansel Adams (don’t laugh), find a scene that I think will work in color, and use the tools I’m gradually learning to make a beautiful image - and if not “beautiful”, something I would like to share with other people.
If I start to feel I “can’t do anything with it”, or it doesn’t impress me when I copy from my memory card to my camera, Poof!!!, it’s history.
Thanks for the suggestion, but even if I’m struggling, maybe, eventually, I’ll find a scene and think "that would be great in B&W. For reasons already mentioned, I don’t want to shoot in B&W any more, only in color. With the tools available in PhotoLab, there is a lot of additional editing that one can do with a color image, more so than a B&W only image. For example, if the image is in color, even after I’ve converted it to B&W, I can use an electronic color filter to enhance the image.
The guys who talk so convincingly about Leica’s Monochrom camera never talk about this of course. But I guess if you’re more interested in “precision” or “art”.
For me, it’s very difficult. When I was a kid, it was obvious.
Maybe it was a mistake, but I configured both my Nikon and my Leica to be able to review an image in B&W. I’m starting to think that was silly. If it’s worth doing, I should buy an ML camera, which will show me the image in B&W (I think) even though it is going to capture a full color RAW image.
I suspect I’m just fooling myself, and I might as well go back to viewing the images in color, and eventually maybe I’ll learn to do better. …But Ansel Adams didn’t need to view anything - and I suspect ditto for Joanna. Being able to see the real-world scene, and adjust things so an image will be captured specifically for B&W is what I suspect the real goal is.
I had another opportunity today to capture something I fully expect will look great in B&W, but it’s a sculpture type thingie, and the original artist deserves any credit, not me. But it will still be good to practice on.
Hi Mike.
Perhaps I am reading you wrong, but it seems that you think there is only one version of black-and-white photography - one range of tones in a correct image. Nothing could be further from the truth.
In fact, black-and-white photography is far more versatile than color photography; there is no one correct starting point
You can change tones, separation, intensity, whites, and black levels. Fine art photography is exactly that, an art. And like any artist, it is unique to you. There is no one correct method or visualization.
So, at least in my own opinion, purchasing a black-and-white camera is at the peril of locking yourself into just a single visualization, when in fact what you want is complete and total freedom. There is no simple starting point.
You need to start experimenting and go through the same process every other artist has gone through: the slog and tedium of learning the craft.
Sorry but I strongly disagree. That is a very poor way to decide when to capture images in black and white. You make it seem like shooting in black and white is an alternative that should only be considered when color doesn’t work. I certainly hope that you’re misstatng what you actually meant.
Mark
Sorry if something I wrote implied that - it’s certainly NOT what I think or mean to write. It all depends on the specific image.
Having written that, when I open up one of my images in B&W, I may have an order in which to do things, but I don’t know where things will end up. If I immediately had that finished result in mind, that would be one thing, but I mostly “go with the flow”. But if I don’t like where things are going, I make a Virtual Copy and start all over again.
I’m too new at this to really answer your question - I’m learning new things from every B&W image I spend a lot of time on. Color (as I see it) is easier - make the photo look like what I thought I saw as I captured it in my camera. From my current point of view, B&W is MUCH more difficult than color.
…but when I look at other people’s B&W images, most of them don’t feel “finished” to me. I imagine if Joanna was creating a B&W image, it might take days before she considered it “finished”. And for that matter, if the following day, I look at an image I already posted, with a fresh look at it, I often see ways to improve it.
I dunno… for someone starting out with color, and an image looks great, and finished, it’s “done”. But if none of the images look great in color, there is a chance that they will look better in B&W?
When the world around us is in color, why should any of us bother with B&W?
Not a serious question now, but if you had asked me five months ago, I wouldn’t have a good answer for you.
I think it takes a LOT of time, and practice, and patience to get to where a B&W image starts to look good - that, or look over other people’s images, and try to see what they saw.
If I ever got REALLY good at B&W, who knows, I might start posting all my images in B&W - but it takes a long time, and infinite patience, and a lot of good feedback helps.
People ask “…but why didn’t you show it in color?”
How to get them to appreciate B&W, when all they see is color.
It’s a real question. I’m not good enough yet, but I’m enjoying getting closer to creating reasonably good B&W images (after which there’s lots of advice on how to do better).
It’s not just chance, or a flat color photo, that makes a B&W photo “work”. You, as photographer, need to intentionally think about what make a photo good, either color or B&W. The basics for B&W are in the references (and many other articles and books at your local library).
Think about your hydrant photo in terms of the examples in the references. What qualities of tone, color, focus, details and textures does this photo have (or lack) that helps make it a good photo (B&W or color).
Out of the millions of hydrants in the world, what stood out to you such that you want to photograph and share this particular hydrant? Which qualities of the hydrant and scene do you which to emphasize and what are the distractions to reduce or remove? The answers to these questions help drive your choice of framing and exposure.
Since this thread is about “good techniques” may I suggest that the most critical technique is identifying 'why’ you want to share any particular photo and ‘what’ you can do to help the photo communicate this message. Deciding on color or B&W depends on knowing the answer to these ‘what’ and ‘why’ questions.
May I also suggest that a photo taken without much thought communicates that message too. So why should we, the viewers spend any more time and effort on it than you did in taking the photo.
Please tell me that was not a serious question.
Mark
@mwsilvers , Hi Mark, You’re absolutely right, my suggestion is too simple and nonsensical. Especially since there are photos that work in color and also in black and white. @mikemyers forget my stupid comment
Sample for color and bw:
It wasn’t a stupid comment. It just called for clarification of what you actually meant. I think I understand the point you were trying to make to Mike.
Mark
Mark, for the world around us, it was/is a serious question.
I suspect most of the world now expects color, and doesn’t enjoy b&w photos like from the past.
I’m not talking about photographers, but the outside world that views these photos. I highly doubt they see B&W an a good choice, when everything around them is in color.
So yes, it was a serious question, in a way.
I suspect non-photographers see b&w images as a “defect”.
They probably look at statues in museums from centuries ago as “broken”.
In photographs, videos, movies, and books, “people” nowadays expect to see color.
…I always wonder what “average people” think about b&w photos? B&W has somewhat died, along with newspapers and B&W television.
But this thread is for US, who ARE photographers, and want to get the BEST out of photographs, and appreciated or not, B&W is still important and relevant to US.
To me, maybe because of the age, and maybe because it looked so “beat up”, this hydrant seemed to have more “character”.
I specifically look at fire hydrants, pipes, and other characteristics that make me feel it would make for an interesting photograph. Of course, people with no interest in fire hydrants might think it was a worthless subject.
Having decided to photograph it, thanks to the earlier discussions, I learned how to do it better. That alone makes all the effort worthwhile to me.
When I look at your photos, the color image looks dull and boring. Just something on the ground.
The B&W photo somehow has more. I want to crop out the top and sides, so the tires and reflection remain. My eyes see “this”, with other stuff surrounding it:
Maybe I’m just “strange”, or “warped”, or whatever, but I rather like the above crop, while I wouldn’t give the colored version a second thought. This is probably because I’ve begun to “think in B&W”, which makes things like this stand out. I don’t know why. Maybe Joanna can explain it. Maybe even Mark.
B&W (to me) makes some images “special”, including this one.
And for me, making lots of notes “for next time”.
Then that’s the part of the image to bring out so your viewers see it too.
Your choice of image capture parameters (both location and camera settings) is the first step and includes thoughts on how you will process in color or B&W (image development step).
With this in mind, can you go back to the hydrant and choose the camera position and setting to get the most “character” “in camera”? This includes point of view (distance, height, sun/lighting angle, lens choice, DoF, etc) as well as camera exposure settings. Remember, you want to get as much as possible “in camera”.
Then post your preferred choice(s) and see how folks might develop the image in DxO to best bring out that “character”.
Thoughts to consider…
What type image is this? Is it a portrait (even for inanimate objects), a landscape, a street scene, action, etc. This guides your choices. I’m guessing portrait since you chose “character”.
What lighting angle gives the most “character” (flat or higher contrast)
What camera angle do you want to use to show the full character - angled down, horizontal, upward, distance.
Do you want to include or exclude other elements in your image to interact with the hydrant?
Do you want the hydrant in focus front to back or showing some DoF “depth”?
Do you want to expose for balanced, highlights, or shadows?
Choose all these then bracket a few frames.
Then… hit the internet and google suggestions for how to develop photos to emphasize “character”, “age”, or other similar words. Apply some ideas.
Overall, channel your inner @joanna and have some fun experimenting.
Make notes of what you did and liked. Yes, it’s quite the effort at first, but after a while it gets easier and more intuitive.
Then consider some off-the-wall ideas such as the “engrave” preset discussed.
Note: these images are meant to be idea starters only!
I plan to do this over the next few days, but while I was reading your post, I had an idea. Instead of my lying down on the ground, which I’m not anxious to do, or aiming the camera down, which distorts the perspective, what if I tried my ancient "Nippon Kodak PC-NIKKOR f/2.8 35mm perspective control lens. I dug it out, figured most of how to use it, but am still puzzled by a few things, and mounted it on my D3 which I used it with 20 or so years ago.
This will allow me to hold the camera level, oriented vertically, and like a view camera, the vertical lines in the image will remain vertical.
I then took photos, changing the direction to shoot from, the angle, setting a good exposure, and trying very hard to focus - finally found a way to get close, but this was at 8:30pm, so it was already getting dark.
I got one photo before it got way too dark, which I’ll post below. I like some aspects, but not others. Need to work on that. The background is appropriately blurry, the light in the background is burnt out (will fix by shooting when it’s lighter outside),. I need to think about it some more. I’ll post that image here anyway, but it’s just a “test” image, although I also like it already. Hmmm…
D3M_4067 | 2024-07-12.nef (10.5 MB)
D3M_4067 | 2024-07-12.nef.dop (14.0 KB)
To answer your questions as of today:
Hit the internet and google suggestions - not sure about this, as I’d rather figure things out for myself, and most of what I read on the internet is like a comic book compared to what I read here as people are now evaluating photos, and discussing them.
If you mean by my “inner Joanna”, I’m always experimenting with the tools I know, and thanks to you guys, learning about things I never even remotely considered - as in the “Engrave” preset. I will install it as soon as I’m sure about what I’m doing, but in my mind, that is “art”, not “photography”, and while I’m excited about what I can do with it, foremost in my mind is creating images that I like, and hopefully some others do too. Then there are people here who I ignore, but that’s a different story. I don’t want to emulate other people’s photos, but I very much DO want to learn from them.
If I still had my studio lights, I might find a use for them, but all of them are gone.
I do have my SB-800 flash, but according to my camera repair shop, it isn’t working correctly. Buying one or two new flash units is possibly in my future, and might even be useful for my hydrant photo as a “fill flash”, like I used to do decades ago.
There are a LOT of excellent ideas in what you wrote. Thanks for taking the time to do so. These are things I need to think of in the future, whenever I’m “composing” a photo.
