Summer finishing, probably, and finishing in DxO

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

@mikemyers

Also, if I were you, I would try to focus on the middle of the bird, not the wingtip. I think either way you will get similar results, but the middle of the bird is likely to be better, because of the tiny size of the bird on your sensor.

The subject recognition parameters are set for eye/head (as far as I understand it, in descending order or priority). I might try adding /body to the list, but there is no option to set for body only.

My opinion, not fact, 1/2500th shutter should be good to minimize camera movement.

Indeed it should, but the movement blur about which I worry is the bird’s. From what wikipedia and Google’s Gemini have to say, the swallow’s airspeed max is about 30mph. I am sure you remember from your school days that this is 88 feet/second. Compounding this we have movement at the wingtip. Gemini was unable to give a precise answer about wingtip speed “because of the difficulties in making the measurement”; but guessed at “several 10s of metres/second”. All of which means that some motion blur is unavoidable. At 60m/sec a target moves about one inch in the 1/2500 exposure.

Next opinion, ISO 800 should be fine, but on my Nikons, I would go much higher.

I set the ISO to auto (that is the camera is in manual with the shutter speed and aperture nailed down; the camera decides the ISO within my target range, plus or minus any backlight adjustment I may set). My max was set to 10000 but the camera decided that wasn’t necessary. And I agree with you, the frame is too dark. The camera’s AF area (within which it must find the target) was set to Wide (that is: virtually the whole sensor), and it may be that when one has it set thus the spot metering is based not on the focused sensors (as was my reading of the manual) but on all the sensors in the frame, That is a project I shall be able to research more thoroughly during the coming winter. Or even fall.

Even if this bird has gone on vacation, there must be other birds you can practice with?

Probably, but none so testing. Unless I drag my wife off to the nearest heronry (it’s a one hour drive, so I shall probably have to bribe her with lunch) I shan’t see any “interesting” birds until I hit the Algarve in February. And the storks there aren’t at the races compared with swallows. Much bigger, and very graceful (apart from their clucking), but nothing like as fast or as nimble.

Still, we shall have the fall colours to amuse us before that. The grape harvest has started, and soon the vines will be going through the gold/red/no leaves cycle.

[swmurray]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

Indeed it should, but the movement blur about which I worry is the bird’s. From what wikipedia and Google’s Gemini have to say, the swallow’s airspeed max is about 30mph. I am sure you remember from your school days that this is 88 feet/second. Compounding this we have movement at the wingtip. Gemini was unable to give a precise answer about wingtip speed “because of the difficulties in making the measurement”; but guessed at “several 10s of metres/second”. All of which means that some motion blur is unavoidable. At 60m/sec a target moves about one inch in the 1/2500 exposure.

Perhaps these references have the clue

Monty Python and the Holy Grail: Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow (interestingengineering.com)

Flight kinematics of the barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) over a wide range of speeds in a wind tunnel | Journal of Experimental Biology | The Company of Biologists

Flight Velocity - What is the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow?

“Well, you have to know these things when you are photographer, you know.”

[mikemyers]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

Indeed it should, but the movement blur about which I worry is the bird’s. From what wikipedia and Google’s Gemini have to say, the swallow’s airspeed max is about 30mph. I am sure you remember from your school days that this is 88 feet/second. Compounding this we have movement at the wingtip. Gemini was unable to give a precise answer about wingtip speed “because of the difficulties in making the measurement”; but guessed at “several 10s of metres/second”. All of which means that some motion blur is unavoidable. At 60m/sec a target moves about one inch in the 1/2500 exposure.

One more thing to consider - assuming the photographer is panning the camera, keeping the bird mostly in one place on the image, changes everything.

The problem Joanna and Wolfgang pointed out in my images was that “the bird” didn’t use enough pixels to capture a sharp image of the bird, even if the bird was not moving. I grudgingly went along with what they wrote, and now I’ve fully accepted it. Two choices - get closer, or use a longer lens. But if you use a 2,000 mm lens, you’ll need an astronomically high shutter speed to freeze the image of the bird. “There’s no free lunch”. Not to mention, the longer the lens, the more difficult it is to hold it still enough as you pan.

@Mike_Murphy_1948

The camera’s AF area (within which it must find the target) was set to Wide (that is: virtually the whole sensor), and it may be that when one has it set thus the spot metering is based not on the focused sensors (as was my reading of the manual) but on all the sensors in the frame,

Some new cameras have software to follow the bird wherever it moves to on the frame. The Nikon Z6 III, Z8, and Z9 apparently can do this - maybe other cameras can do so as well.

I keep telling myself that people did this anyway with their old film cameras, and none of this new software. (Do I really need new software that will follow a bird’s eye as the bird is flying?)

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

Thank you. The Monty Python one is refreshingly amusing - I can’t quite imagine how I have never seen the film. I promise it’s not because I was fascinated by the whole Arthurian thing from Medieval French Lit (yes, really) through TH White and Charles Williams. I struggle with the flight kinetics, not least because the notation is foreign to me. At first sight it looked as though (for example) 14ms-1 (the last two characters superscript) might mean 14 metres / second. Which is that wikipedia suggested swallows might achieve in a dive (30 mph in old money). But then it appeared from consulting gemini that it might mean reciprocal 14 milliseconds and be something to do with rate of change. And my schoolboy maths couldn’t follow.

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

Some new cameras have software to follow the bird wherever it moves to on the frame. The Nikon Z6 III, Z8, and Z9 apparently can do this - maybe other cameras can do so as well.

In theory, mine does this. Let’s just admit I haven’t found a way to make it work consistently to my satisfaction at close enough shooting distances. That’s partly because the swallows are hard to follow, and partly because they come close at times when the light (well, lack thereof) handicaps the camera’s ability to af against the low contrast background. And I didn’t mention my reaction times yet.

It has, however, led me to a new effort in abstract art (as you predicted):

[JoPoV]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

My opinion, not fact, 1/2500th shutter should be good to minimize camera movement.

Indeed it should, but the movement blur about which I worry is the bird’s

1/3200s or 1/4000s are often used for small birds in flight.

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

1/3200s or 1/4000s are often used for small birds in flight.

I often use these speeds, but the light wasn’t great…

[zkarj (macOS, PLe+FP+VP, Pentax)]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

1/2500 because I was trying to keep the ISO low. The camera chose 800.

My Pentax KP has an excellent Sony sensor and I routinely let it float up to 25600 which DeepPRIME or DeepPRIME XD can usually tame easily. When I tested DeepPRIME XD2 in PureRAW earlier in the year, it did an even better job.

@mikemyers

My opinion, not fact, 1/2500th shutter should be good to minimize camera movement.

I was about to say…

@JoPoV

1/3200s or 1/4000s are often used for small birds in flight.

I have recently got a bit more serious about trying to capture properly sharp BIF (bird in flight) photos and did some reading. What @JoPoV says is certainly the common wisdom I have come across. Another version says “at least 1/2000”.

Panning may solve the head being sharp, but small birds have relatively fast wing beats and 1/2000 will still leave blur at least at the wing tips.

@Mike_Murphy_1948

if I could afford to get a teleconverter

Before you spend any money on a teleconverter, check DxO’s supported lenses database. I haven’t checked lately, but I’m fairly sure there are no supported teleconverters on Pentax.

[JoPoV]

@zkarj

What @JoPoV says is certainly the common wisdom I have come across. Another version says “at least 1/2000”.

It depends of your tracking capability (keep the bird in the same place in the frame when panning) and the size of the bird (big birds look slower and less erratic than smaller) and weither you want to freeze the wings or not.
Some even shoot humminbirds at 1/1600 or 1/800 or less.

Good starting point for beginning (and then adjust to tracking capability and esthetic choice) is 1/1600s for big birds and 1/3200 for small birds.

Don’t gorget to deactivate VR at high shutter speed as it can ruin perfect sharpness (threshold depends of the combo lens/camera - so test your gear).

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

@zkarj

Before you spend any money on a teleconverter, check DxO’s supported lenses database. I haven’t checked lately, but I’m fairly sure there are no supported teleconverters on Pentax.

Thanks! That is good advice. And I have plenty of time to take it, LOL!

[swmurray]

I have the Sony 1.4 teleconverter to go with the 200-600mm lens. DxO recognizes it.
I bought it to get that much “closer”, but find the results are softer than without while panning. Again, your experience may be different.

I agree with @JoPoV regarding shutter speeds. My comfort range is 1/600 -1/2000 for larger/slower birds I can follow while panning, and 1/3200 for fast/random flight birds such as the swallows.

Hope you get a few more chances before the birds disappear for the winter.

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

@swmurray

Hope you get a few more chances before the birds disappear for the winter.

Thanks! They were still here last night, but too late for the light to get in close.

PL7.8 for the deepest Prime NR with the backlight HDR preset, eye dropper WB, and +1 stop of exposure, sharpened a smidge in Photo AI. We’ll see whether tonight’s bad weather frightens them into leaving.

[JoPoV]

@swmurray

I have the Sony 1.4 teleconverter to go with the 200-600mm lens. DxO recognizes it.
I bought it to get that much “closer”, but find the results are softer than without while panning

Sometime better result are acheived with cropping than with teleconverters with “hires” sensors (around 50Mp).
Teleconverter can soften image and reduce AF performance since largest aperture decreases (more precisely d/f ratio). Af performs better with more light. Specially continuous AF and burst.
It depends of gears and lighting. It’s worth testing your equipment to find out what the best compromise is and when.

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

@JoPoV

Sometime better result are acheived with cropping than with teleconverters with “hires” sensors (around 50Mp).

If I win the lottery and become able to afford a camera with a hi-res sensor, I’ll be sure to give it a try . For this year and next, I’ll have to manage with the 26Mp I have. And it’s a crop body (1.5) so I am pre-binning the pixels I would crop out of a full frame. Oh, this kind of arithmetic gives me a headache.

the results are softer than without while panning.

I can only applaud anyone who succeeds in panning swallows. Their changes of direction are so sudden it’s a lottery whether I can follow them or not.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@swmurray

My comfort range is 1/600 -1/2000 for larger/slower birds I can follow while panning, and 1/3200 for fast/random flight birds such as the swallows.

A long time ago, I learnt a quick “formula”.

• if you are steady handed, minimum shutter speed should be the reciprocal of the focal length (e.g. 400mm - 1/400sec)
• if the subject is moving, double that speed (e.g. 400mm - 1/800sec)
• if you are moving as well, triple the speed (e.g. 400mm - 1/1200sec)
• as you get older, possibly 4 times might be advisable, especially with heavier lenses.

[JoPoV]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

I can only applaud anyone who succeeds in panning swallows. Their changes of direction are so sudden it’s a lottery whether I can follow them or not.

Try to get them when they come to you.
Not really time to aquire a good focus before shooting as with big birds.
Needs appropriate AF. D850 succeed well enough for swallows with auto af on a plain sky. Really more difficult with interesting background and this camera.

[JoPoV]

@Joanna

A long time ago, I learnt a quick “formula”.

Hires (50Mp) sensors seems more sensitive. But VR helps and depends on the camera and lens (at leat for nikon which combine both, even if for long focal lens camera VR seems to preval more than for short focal lens).
So now it depends on your gear. And your ability to stay fixed or pan.
Some succeed hand-held sharp images at 1/60s with 600mm on static shots with “new” cameras and lens. (I don’t ).

[swmurray]

@Joanna: Your generalized rules assume that the photographer can pan the camera relative to the subject’s movement such that the subject is reasonably “frozen” in the frame.
For erratic bird movement, and especially for birds with fast wing beats this generalized rule does not work. At the extreme, try freezing a hummingbird’s wing while it is hovering midair even at 1/3200.

[swmurray]

@Mike_Murphy_1948

I can only applaud anyone who succeeds in panning swallows. Their changes of direction are so sudden it’s a lottery whether I can follow them or not.

Whole heartedly agree!!!

Same lens - A1 camera. strong mid-day light. Heavy crop. Focus point was under wingpit (per A7info). Forgot to up shutter speed as I out to photograph a Peregrin Falcon nest site.

@JoPoV

Sometime better result are acheived with cropping than with teleconverters with “hires” sensors (around 50Mp).
Teleconverter can soften image and reduce AF performance since largest aperture decreases (more precisely d/f ratio). Af performs better with more light. Specially continuous AF and burst.
It depends of gears and lighting. It’s worth testing your equipment to find out what the best compromise is and when.

Well stated. This has been my experience with the Sony 200-600 and 1.4tele combo. Needs strong light. Unfortunately, in my case it’s the “dark” bird against a bright sky.

[Mike_Murphy_1948 (Michael Murphy)]

@swmurray

Same lens - A1 camera. strong mid-day light. Heavy crop. Focus point was under wingpit (per A7info). Forgot to up shutter speed as I out to photograph a Peregrin Falcon nest site.

I know how you feel. While I am waiting for the swallows, I often see passing planes (we live under an air traffic control crossroads, it sometimes seems) and insects. Will have to think about programming a couple of Cn buttons to change the Subject Recognition target type on the fly (sorry, pun quite unintended until I had typed it).