Part 2 - Off-Topic - advice, experiences, and examples for images being processed in DxO Photolab

DxO PhotoLab
1132

I have entered those settings into my D780, as he did, but I’m checking if there are other things I still need to do. I think I have to set up “tracking”. Time to “hit the books”. :slight_smile:

My friend didn’t use the back screen - he used the normal viewfinder on the Z6 II, and now on his Z8.

Suitable or not, for Live View ML photography with the D780, I will be using the back screen, unless/until I switch the camera back into DSLR mode like last time. This is what the fellow who made the video had to do, until he replaced his D780 with the Z6 II.

I may try to contact him using messaging, to get more information.

This may be a similar video from Steve Perry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxQhuMQEwLU
Will watch it after dinner.

1133

The question being: “Are you focusing on the most important aspects of taking a photo?”
My answer would be very different than the one you provided. I would respond first with a rhetorical question and then a few suggestions.

“Rhetorical:”
"What would you do if your trip to the wetlands was a spec job assignment, and you were competing with others for the job? How can you best prepare for this job assignment.

Practical suggestions to prepare for your visit to the wetlands.
“what to shoot”:
As a journalist, what “story” do you want to share with your client/friends about your visit to these wetlands. Perhaps a story of how these wetlands came to be and why they are special or important. Perhaps a story about the amazing birds that make this wetland their home. Perhaps a story of two friends enjoying time together in the outdoors taking photos and practicing their hobby. Perhaps it’s a photography class field assignment and you have to demonstrate certain photography skills/techniques with Joanna as your “instructor”.
Finding a “story” will help you focus and guide you as to “what to shoot” as well as some incentive to capture as good a photo as you can visualize.

Also: Learn as much about your subject (presumably birds) so you know what behaviors to expect, what habitats they are expected to be in, and a bit about how to approach them responsibly so as to not disturb them where they fly off or otherwise interfere with their life. The better you “know” them the more likely you will be able to photograph them and share “the story” you hope to tell with your photos.

“how to shoot”:
Why wait for your trip to the wetlands to use “Live View”.
Practice everyday using “Live view” on the everyday subjects you currently photograph. See how well that does versus your normal behavior of through the viewfinder. This includes people, cars and boats, etc. Try using it outside on bright and cloudy conditions to see how that works and how “bright” to set the view screen to make it useable. Watch how that affects your battery life. Try using “Liveview” in your local park to photo branches or other locations where you expect to see birds. Take a stuffed animal and place it in these spots just like the internet guys do to demonstrate camera use.
Practice with the monopod and camera settings. Make notes to yourself to truely learn these techniques and speed up your responses when at the wetlands.
I especially recommend practicing using the various focus areas from small spot to full frame. Since the camera sensor focus’ on the nearest object in the user specified focus area getting a feel for how this works helps you quickl. This makes a different on how easy it is to hold onto focus vs how tight to focus between nearby obstacles. This goes for burst mode and single shot. Learn to feel how many shots you are squeezing off with a quick press on the shutter.
As you develop your skills consider objects in motion to practice your panning skills and more challenging focus situations.

You can also practice with the DOF, lighting/contrast, and perspective by being creative with your choice of subjects. Personally, I like to play with DOF when taking photos of interesting tree limbs or fields of flowers/grasses. It’s a nice diversion to see how well I can target a DOF “zone”. This helps speed up the preparation when in a rush to photo a fleeting bird. These photographer skills are not specific to bird photography either. When out hiking on my own and I have an urge to photograph something/anything I play the “lightning round” game - how many different types of photo challenges can I do in a minute. When back at the PC I get to be the judge.

“when to shoot”:
When you can answer the “what to shoot” and “how to shoot” questions affirmatively.
What to shoot: What is the subject and background? What visual perspective does this shot provide? Does this fit the “story”? That is, “why” am I taking this photo? This doesn’t have to be deeply philosophical - I like the pose, the color, the shadows, the contrast with the background, the ripples in the water, etc. all work; but focusing on a theme/purpose challenges the mind to help tell a story rather than just taking a snapshot.
How to shoot: What camera setting and physical location best meet the desired photo “what” above. I think of location/time of day/shooting angle/zoom for perspective and lighting/shadows. Shutter for motion, f-stop for DOF, focus mode to best hold focus, ISO for brightness/highlights/shadows control, etc.

Perhaps this preparation will help you have a more enjoyable and successful visit to the wetlands.

1 Like
1134

English may or may not be your native language, but you may be the only person here who correctly understood what I was trying to say. Anyway, I configured my D780 as the guy who made the D780>Z6 II did, and after a lot of reading went through all my ML settings, and changed some based on yet more YouTube videos explaining what they each did. The online manual was extremely helpful:
a10: Focus Point Options

About the last thing you wrote, I intend to try out both DSLR and Live View ML tools for myself on my D780, the latter meaning I’ll be viewing the back screen, along with using the viewfinder for DSLR mode. I think I have the focusing adjusted. Will soon find out. It’s just a test.

1135

All of that was well thought out, and lots of good ideas, but the reality is that this will be only my second trip to Wakodahatchee Wetlands, and I’ll get there around sunrise and stay for perhaps two hours. I’m still learning this camera, and now the ML mode. If I come home with 50 images that I like, I will be satisfied, and I’ll probably learn a lot more about what I’m doing and how to improve my use of the camera. I’ll also find out if LV/ML works for me, or not. Basically, just a couple of hours of photographing some birds.

I’ll save what you wrote for the future, but remember, I’m doing this for fun, as a hobby, and the main goal is to enjoy a couple of hours of bird photography. What you wrote sounds like a major project… but thanks for posting. Time now for sleep…

About “rhetorical” - it isn’t, and wouldn’t be, but if it really was serious, it would be a long term project - like what’s that word… “work”. I do this for fun, and before I even might contemplate what you wrote, I’ve got a LOT to learn. Fortunately, I still enjoy learning. :slight_smile:

Oh, and if I was going to try what you wrote, I would buy a Z9, just as I bought a D3 many years ago for my racing photography. …along with some longer focal length lenses, to eliminate the issues Joanna has pointed out in my past.

1136

I am a hobbyist who started taking photos of birds as an aid to identification in retirement about 10 years ago. Through the years I have tried to “up my game” to improve my “collection”.

After being exposed to what a National Geographic photographer does/can do as well as many other very good professional photographers who photograph birds as a hobby I have improved my skills. These photographers have been very kind to share skill building tips with me and they all evolve around the conscious, and intentional effort to visualize the photograph and to develop the camera skills to actually get that vision from the camera. Like bird IDing I find that building my photography skills is a fun challenge.

I, and all these great photographers, in no way suggested you need to buy the latest/greatest camera/'lens to take good photos. Instead, it is about using the camera you have to the best of your ability and to get the most, photographically, out of that camera.

This is what you said you admire and wanted to do. Now you say it’s too much “work”!

You have 2 hours at the wetlands and you want to wait until you arrive to learn to use liveview there? Seems like a real waste of valuable time if there are as many good birds there to photograph as you say.

I’m sorry I actually thought you wanted to be a more skilled photographer and develop in the “art”.

1 Like
1137

I think your friend is meaning the wake-up time. If you don’t use the camera for a while it goes to ‘sleep’. That wake-up time is very annoying. I don’t know what the wake-up time is for the other camera’s.

George

1138

That’s only because you change the questions you are willing to answer as soon as we find a flaw in your arguments.

Before the great PR gurus came up with the moniker “mirrorless”, all cameras that were not DSLR were labelled either “compact” or, sometimes, “mirrorless” and you were forced to use the rear screen. But then marketing gurus invented the term “hybrid” to describe any camera that used an EVF rather than having to use the rear screen.

Ergo, according to those definitions, the D780 is not a hybrid because it doesn’t use an EVF. Using the rear screen makes it into what is essentially a compact camera and using the OVF makes it a DSLR.

Canon makes it clear when they say…

In use, the difference between Mirrorless and DSLR cameras, stems mainly from how you frame your subject.

For example, an EOS DSLR will always have an optical viewfinder, as well as an LCD screen. Canon Mirrorless cameras will always have an LCD screen, but not necessarily a viewfinder. If there is a viewfinder it will be an electronic viewfinder.

So, Canon state that, on a truly mirrorless camera, If there is a viewfinder it will be an electronic viewfinder

And this definition is not unique to Canon. Here’s Nikon’s headline blurb on the D780…

Let nothing stand between you and your vision. The D780 gives you everything you’d expect from a pro-calibre DSLR, and then some. A clear view. A long battery life. A tough build. Plus two fast, reliable AF systems, phenomenal tracking, wide ISO range, and more. Freeform or staged. Stills or movies.

From their technical specifications page…

Type - Single-lens reflex digital camera.

The most accurate way of describing it is that it is the same as any other preceding Nikon DSLR cameras except, in LiveView, it offers the same on-sensor auto-focus and auto-exposure mechanism found in their Z6II mirrorless camera.

Based on your hype-biased opinion, my D100, D200, D810 and D850 are all “mirrorless” because, when I choose LiveView mode, they don’t use the mirror. The difference with the D780 is that it uses the same on-sensor auto-focus and auto-exposure technology. But that doesn’t make it any more a mirrorless camera, even in LiveView, than any preceding Nikon DSLR that has LiveView capabilities.

And, if you read further in many writings on the D780, you start to see that the “mirrorless” technologies in LiveView seem far more connected to video shooting where fast response and focus tracking are far more important.

Now to a practical consideration of using LiveView.

Before going to all the trouble of setting up all your LiveView settings, did you think of seeing what happens when you press the shutter in LiveView? Did you notice that the rear screen goes black for a second before the shutter actually fires? Do you understand that this “blackout” is because the sensor has to be “discharged” from its “viewing” state back to zero before the shutter can be opened in the “taking” state? Have you thought about how that delay might affect the ability to regain focus when shooting in burst mode? How do you track the subject on the rear screen when you can’t see anything?

This is common to the majority of “mirrorless” cameras, not just the D780.

1139

Wakeup time for m43 or any other IBIS holding camera is alway’s slower.
It needs to generate a field to lift the sensor before it can show you any view EFV or live view.

1140

You mean it ls IBIS related? So the z50 doesn’t have that delay? Not that I would go for the Z50, I went for the IBIS, to use it with my lenses without VR. It works wonderful.

George

1141

DSLR mirror is only powerup memory and lens electronics and some software. the OFV doesn’t need anything.
EVF needs sensor related image information so the hole shebam needs to be up and running before you see anything in the EVF or LCD.
if IBIS is involved it’s first raise sensor, stabilize, sent image info for EVF/LCD and it needs to use some LUT’s (AE/AF so your not blinded after a night shoot and a first new power up in the noon sun.
So a DSLR is always faster for the first image.
mine has a sleep mode which notisch i raise my camera so it powers up wile i am raising my camera to my head/eye. works but it drains the battery wile walking lens down in powered sleepmode.

1142

[quote=“Joanna, post:1138, topic:37104”]
…did you think of seeing what happens when you press the shutter in LiveView? Did you notice that the rear screen goes black for a second before the shutter actually fires? Do you understand that this “blackout” is because the sensor has to be “discharged” from its “viewing” state back to zero before the shutter can be opened in the “taking” state? …

Joanna, I have my D780 set up the way I think it should be as of last night. I practiced walking around like that, taking images to see how it would work.
When I capture an image, the screen does go black for a split second, and then returns. When I remove my finger from the back-button-focus, the image I just captured is shown.

No, I didn’t understand that “this “blackout” is because the sensor has to be “discharged” from its “viewing” state back to zero before the shutter can be opened in the “taking” state?” until you explained this. Thankyou!!!

No, not yet. I will soon find out. I suspect this is the annoyance my friend Ray had with the Z6 II, and the same thing will happen to me.

Again, no, I haven’t yet experienced this. I assume it will work for me as it works for anyone using a Z6 II. Again, I’m guessing this will illustrate why Ray gave up on his Z6 II.

I’m wondering right now if these are “fatal flaws” or just “annoyances”. I also realize that at the press of a button, I’m back in DSLR mode, something ML users can’t do, as there ain’t no DSLR mode available.

If I was wealthy, I’d just buy a Z9 to use alongside my DSLR, and I’d get the lens adapter too - but I’m not, and this is not an option. In the real world, if this doesn’t work, again, I can switch the camera back to DSLR mode. :slight_smile:

As to Ray, he took lots of photos with his Z6 II, and still owns it. The blackouts were an annoyance, and the Z8 seems to have cured the issue, somehow.

This link may explain things better than I can - still a lot for me to learn:
Nikon D780 Review - Focusing Performance

1143

I thought you said he is using the EVF??

My friend didn’t use the back screen - he used the normal viewfinder on the Z6 II, and now on his Z8.

George

1144

Maybe I got my mords wixed up. When I was watching him, his eyes were glued to the upper viewfinder, just like me, but while I was watching things “live” (my words), he was watching on the internal TV screen.

I apologize if I said something incorrectly. To me, both ways of viewing on a ML camera show essentially the same thing, which is why I haven’t wanted one.

On a ML camera, I’ve always assumed that both ways of viewing something, show the identical view.

I do know what everyone tells me, but I want to see it for myself, using my camera, and both methods of viewing, “live” and “electronic”.

Most/many people tell me that ML has gotten so good, it’s durn near impossible to tell the difference. That’s fine for them, but seeing the world through Ray’s upper viewfinder does NOT look like what I see/feel with my DSLR.

To me, technically, on a ML camera you see an EVF regardless of where/how you look. Maybe that’s what led to the confusion?

1145

Maybe what you wrote is the reason why we go back and forth so much.

According to Nikon, the D780 can be used as a DSLR, and it ALSO includes the tools to also shoot it using the mirrorless components from the Z6 II. In addition, it also includes components from Nikon’s D5.

I’ve been using the camera until now just as I would use any of my Nikon DSLR cameras.

Is it correct to call this a “hybrid” camera? According to the PPA, that answer is “yes”:
https://www.ppa.com/ppmag/articles/review-nikon-d780-is-a-winning-hybird-camera

I think everyone in this forum believes it is a terrible idea, but I simply want to capture some photos of birds using both systems - DSLR, and the mirrorless components from the Z6 II, and compare both ways of taking the photos.

As to the article I linked to, here are the conclusions:

  • Is the D780 right for you? For me, the hybrid qualities of the D780 may relegate my Z 6 to backup camera for much of my work; although for general shooting the Z 6 with its growing array of lenses is great. I found the D780 with 24-120mm lens to be the same size and weight as the Z 6, FTZ adapter, and the identical lens. Other features on the cameras will determine which is primary and which is backup when 24-megapixel captures are sufficient.

  • *The D780 represents a major step forward in Nikon’s DSLR line, and its hybrid nature is likely to appeal to both professionals and enthusiasts, as will its price of $2,297 for the body. *

Perhaps all of you know better than I, and it’s a silly thing to try, but I want to find out for myself. I’ve already used the D780 as a DSLR, and now I want to try it with the mirror locked up, using the tools from the mirrorless Z6 II. When I finish, regardless of how things turn out, I’ll post my thoughts and some hybrid photos.

(I would prefer to stop writing about this until after I’ve tested it.)

1146

I don’t know how to respond. For as long as I’ve been taking photographs, if I needed something to accomplish a task, I’ve bought it. Yes, use what you’ve got, as best you can, but when I get home I’ll order things as needed. When the cost gets over $100, I need to re-consider.

Waste of time? I’m already using “live view”, but not on birds. As of yesterday, it works fine.

Valuable time? I don’t think in those terms. If it takes 5 minutes or 5 hours, I’ll do what’s needed.

Many birds? It’s like walking into a football stadium, with endless birds all over - but I get picky as to which ones I want to photograph.

"more skilled photographer and develop in the “art”??? That’s what I’m doing, but in my own way. I could drive there every day if I wanted. …which I don’t. For now, my goal is photos similar to what I see on Steve’s forum, but better.

The difference between now and in my past, is I used to have an income, and now I’m retired.

I figure if I do the best I can, and learn from my mistakes, just like any other kind of photography, I’ll improve. I’ll never be the next “Joanna”, but I will start capturing images I’m proud of. And if the need arises to buy something new, eventually I’ll get it. People have been capturing beautiful bird photographs for decades, and in no way do I feel I’ve got to buy the “latest and greatest” stuff.

…I hope that more or less answers your questions. It would be easier in person.

1147

I understand. Hope you find the shortcut you are looking for.

1148

Didn’t you ever get a new piece of camera gear, lens, whatever, and the first thing you wanted to do was try it out and see what it’s like? To me, it’s not a “shortcut”, it’s just trying something new for me. Wasn’t doing so fun and exciting? Serious stuff usually follows later, but not always.

I think photography should be “fun”, something enjoyable. Every time I walk out my door with my D3, it’s “fun”… seeing what I can do with it, without going too far beyond its limitations. Trying out new things can be very enjoyable, if you have the appropriate attitude. Walking out the door with your camera can be an “adventure”, as you see what you can do with it.

I hope you really do understand.

It’s like when PhotoLab can mold what I captured, into what I wanted to capture. The image was there all the time, but I need to control PhotoLab to bring out the result I wanted. To me, that’s fun, and enjoyment, and a challenge too. Much more so (to me) than the other image processors.

1149

Mike.

We all have Christmas morning joy with a new camera. The challenge is when the newness wears off and there is still more to learn/master.

Recently you posted a photo with only part of the bird’s body in focus. @Joanna was kind enough to go through the photography basics of DOF. In the end you appeared to blow her off when that impacted the background so you changed the subject. But…have you learned from her discussion so that you will recognize when the same opportunity comes up again and be able to set your camera to get a better photograph?

Now you are on a ridiculous kick to be the only photographer using the back screen in bright daylight to photograph birds using a monopod. Looks like your guru, Steve Perry, uses a heavy tripod, a gimbal, and the eyepiece. To most of us it a folly trying to apply the wrong tool(s) for the job.
Back screen “Live view” technology is great as a stand-in for a tethered monitor when doing studio-like photography where you need to move around or interact with the subject while composing or taking the shot. Using two hands and the eyepiece frame resting on your forehead gives three points of contact for a stable camera. Sort of like a human tripod.

I could go on, but it’s clear that you want to find some internet “guru” to provide you the “secret settings” shortcut to get @Joanna like photos without have to learn that boring DOF and visualization stuff.

Good luck! Perhaps there are rainbows and unicorns in your future too.

2 Likes
1150

Yes, I noticed that :crazy_face:

Heheheh. And what’s more, @mikemyers doesn’t seem at all keen on demonstrating how that’s meant to work.

On the other hand, something that he hasn’t yet tried, or even acknowledged is how he is going to see the subject he is meant to be tracking when using LiveView.

So, I thought I would record a little video on my iPhone of what happens when I pressed the shutter, in LiveView, and took a high speed burst of 36 images…

video removed to avoid sharing location

The video starts when I press the shutter. At which point, the screen has gone black and… then it stays black, until I release the shutter, some 36 frames later. Also, you will notice that, not only is it a black screen, it also reflects everything behind it, like the iPhone that was shooting the video. Only when I release the shutter do I get to see what the camera is looking at.

On the other hand, if I use the OVF, I might get short interruptions to being able to see anything but, between those, I get to see what I am pointing at, so I can track where it is going.

@mikemyers you really need to test this out before you waste time and fuel going a long distance. I didn’t need to find a flying bird to prove using LiveView is going to be totally impossible if you intend to track something that is moving.

On your D780, you can set menu d13 so that the LiveView remains on whilst in burst mode but a test on my D850 demonstrated the the screen might come back on but there was a delay of at least 2 seconds before I got to see the first shot and, by the time the image reappeared, I had lost track of where the subject was going. After the first long blackout, then the image changes, at a speed that is slower than the burst mode frame rate, without further blackout, but with a significant lag from between when the shot was taken and when I got to see it on the screen.

But, for me, the worst of all is having to battle with the reflection of what is behind the camera and not being able to see where the subject is going, only where it has been.

Oh, and no matter what gizmos setup on the camera, until you master DoF vs focal length vs aperture, there is no way you are going to get your subjects sharp and isolated from their background.

Addenda

The D780 mechanical shutter is only rated for 200,000 shots before it might fail and need replacing/servicing. If you take bursts of 100 shots at a time, that means, after only 2,000 such bursts, your shutter may end up dead.

1151

What’s the point in going on that way? Mike is stuppirn (combination of stubborn and stupid, dedicated to the guy possessing a couple of medals in silver and gold for wasting bandwidth and server capacity to the max) enough to remain convinced he is the only person on Earth who bought a DSLR which has all the advantages a mirrorless body has at the same time. Leave it that way, or try your D850’s electronic shutter with no blackout at all. Because that will be the to-be-expected-response of him. in no less than 5 new use- and pointless posts.