Agreed, completely. I post way too much, way too often.
I’ll try to avoid doing so in the future.
The thread is 2 months old, has > 800 posts, a lot of which aren’t related to the topic outlined in the thread’s title. Maybe it is time to close the thread for new entries?
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Well, in fact it is - Mike created it when his first one got too long.
Personally, I have no problems with long vivid treads as long as they add something.
Sometimes just the fact that we allow a very broad tread about almost everything to find its own ways can give it special qualities just because of that reason…
The problem here was almost the opposite when the forum failed in agreeing on what a mirrorless camera really is. That just created unnessessary confusion.
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Mind you, you’re talking A LOT about stuff you don’t own or use and are in no position to complain about!
Then let’s hope this won’t be an empty promise.
The “old” thread has more than 3.000 posts and its nature became more like a chatroom. But apparently there’s a need for it and as long as DxO finances this kind of stuff… nobody is forced to read or post here and still we are posting and reading. 
Once I recall Joanna to say, she’s writing because others could also benefit of some of the basics Mike had a hard time to understand although he often claims to be a professional photographer or have been. I just can’t imagine anybody reading through this galaxy of texts an try to learn basics… 
Another view on Live View that most people have never heard of
Already in 2008 Sony released some DSLR-cameras with a very special variant of Live View. In this case LIVE View was not parking the mirror at the top of the main beam path. It was on the contrary in the same position as always. It was just to push a control on the top plate to activate it. This was before sensors had AF-points on the main sensor. So this construction made it possible to get FAST-AF (Phase Detect AF) even in Live view which other systems could not offer.
Today we can consider it a dead-end because the modern mirrorless have fast hybrid-AF but when this solution saw the light it was a Sony-only way to combine Live View in DSLR-cameras with a faster AF than the competition could offer.
Link to DPreview review: Sony Alpha DSLR-A350 Review: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
2011 NEX 7 was released and I got mine just before Christmas. It was the first serious E-mount mirrorless Sony had made so far - even if it had its limitations. It had no phase detect-AF and that was just what I was looking for since that AF-tech have no natural equilibrium state. Phase detect-AF systems have to be calibrated properly in order to get a reliable focusing system and sad to say - these days many manufacturers didn´t spend enough with efforts to achieve that.
The contrast-Af had what I was looking for - a closed loop feed back system that almost guaranteed an AF with an automatically adjusting system capable of achieving an equilibrium state and that state was set using the main mirror instead of a separate AF-mirror as in DSLR-systems. A separate AF-sensor is to ask for problems. Syncing it with the main mirror is always a manual task.
The reason I bought my NEX 7 was that it promised to solve all the focusing problems I have had so far with all my DSLR-cameras in one way or another - AND IT DID!
My DSLR:s and especially my KonicaMinolta D7D gave me so many focusing related problems that I was very close to just give all photography the finger. I don´t say that DSLR-cameras don´t work but what I say is that they don´t automatically - they HAVE to be properly calibrated. The only thing in a DSLR to trust when it comes to focus is Live View 
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I never heard of this.
What happened when someone pushed the button to activate it?
Too lazy to read the linked article?
Looking through without a battery fitted…
Taking a photo with another camera through the OV?
Some BIF shooters are stating that EVF refreshing to slow and in tracking you loose point of interrest because the background got’s blurry do the fast moving panning motion. (i own a Mirrorless so can’t test the difference.)
The resolution in the early day’s of EVF where too low which puts off much off the OVF users. This is now reversed. The electronic zoom function is one of the key plusses against OVF.
And the DOF , focus plane colorinlay with manual focus is much better then the OFV version i know. Old FL lenses. 
never owned a modern DSLR mirrorslapping body.
When i drop in i see 60 post’s in 2 day’s or so, so this is a chatroom like topic.
A pub, a house living room with it’s discussions which often are spreading all over the place.
I wrote dxo staff twice to create a seperate section for this kind of topics
“general twatter” or " DxO Forum’s Living Room"
So they can move threads who are derailing in a bombastic posting numbers to that section so information seakers about dxo software arn’t drowning in quicksand like topics.
Never got a answer if they liked the idea.
I gues not because the header isn’t made/appeared.
Well monday and an other week of work without photography involved.
Be back in few hours/day’s.
Yeah, chatroom. “general twatter” is very nice, or “CamChatter”. If we connect “camera” and “kindergarden”, it could become a camdergarden. DxO didn’t reply to your request, but they also don’t lock this kind of threads. And since their forum is really well made and maintained, I’m grateful for their tolerance - or lack of interest to interfere.
is not exactly
I didn’t mean photographing a DSLR as subject. And anyway, it was meant as question towards Mr. Myers, but that person is only interested in make others work to get answers he then doesn’t understand. I think already of “myersing” as a clear description of this behaviour. 
Then they should get a decent mirrorless body. Or practice more. Or read the manual and try different AF-C settings. Also, loosing the subject because background or foreground gets in the way is not unique to mirrorless, DSLRs also get crazy when they see a bunch of twigs. 
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That’s not completely true. EVF has always a delay and less quality compared to OVF. It’s getting less.
It was one of my hesitations to buy a mirrorless DSLR. I’m satisfied with my Z6II but I can imagine that shooting fast moving birds may be a problem.
George
Aha, and the mirror delay before the shutter opens can just be ignored? It doesn’t matter when you loose some milliseconds, the image always happens to be recorded after pressing the shutter release, not while!
One exception, though: electronic global shutter in the sensor and a fully mechanical lens (no motors for aperture blade springs, no motors for manual focus) without any AF or Auto-exposure involved, without any mechanical parts of the camera body involved will record precisely when you press the shutter.
Shooting birds in flight (or moving objects in general) always means, you have to follow the object and try to aim at it as good as possible, then predict a moment to press the shutter. But nobody can press the shutter release precisely enough to catch the wings at it‘s highest or lowest point. One reason bird shooters always want to buy more fps.
Also, there are plenty mirrorless bodies around with a refresh rate of 120 fps which is about twice as fast as our eyes. And since there are mirrorless cameras shooting at 120 fps continuous burst, your reasoning falls apart.
Next is „quality“ which depends highly on the aperture of the lens.
500/5.6 + 2× converter = 1000/11.
Now guess, which cameratype shows a brighter finder image? 
Also, try to focus manually only with your OVF, camera on tripod, fast lens mounted, say f/1.4. Then switch to LV and find out if your focus was spot on.
The massive and only advantage of a DSLR today still is very economical battery consumption. All the other advantages, valid at the dawn of mirrorless systems became invalid or equalised by exclusively mirrorless advantages.
Oh, and btw. „mirrorless DSLR“ is like a „tyreless 4-wheel drive“. Not exisiting. DSLR = digital single lens reflex! As long as people keep on confusing abbreviations there will always be pointless discussions…
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I, and others, are not talking about the max available performance but more the average or what we posses. I own the Z6II and that has a refresh rate of 60. For me enough. The last one before this I’ve seen was less, even to less for me. And I just learned that in silent mode Nikon uses a rolling electronic shutter, except the Z9 which uses a global electronic shutter. For me it’s not a limitation.
Quality doesn’t depend on the aperture and/or viewing angle. It mostly depends, but not only, on the building/construction of the lens. It’s also not synonym with a higher resolution of the sensor sec.
And yes, it’s mirrorless, or mirrorless DSL, or system. I still don’t know how to call it.
George
Read the article and zoom in the pictures.
I have never understood that DSLR-enthusiasts have had so hard to understand the limitations of these cameras. There is a reason why DSLR-cameras now are hitting the garbage pile of history in great numbers. Canon and Nikon made what they could to limit the disaster after their joint marketing mistake of not taking mirrorless seriously. I guess Nikons and Mikes talk about Live View in Nikon DSLR-cameras as some sort of “mirrorless” was part of that smoke screen.
The truth was that DSLR:s had hit the end of their development road. It was impossible to get much faster than 15-16 fps in burst without that mirrorsystem would fall a part.
Ignoring the mirror blackout in DSLR-cameras is just polntless. It is just so much inferrior to messure exposure and AF continously without the blackout during a big part of the image cycle. Not to talk about trying to see anything through an OVF in darkness, which by the way is possible today in a bright EVF.
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I think i can open an other can of worms.
IBIS or OIS and both together working in ILC body or the VR(OIS) of dslr body’s which is better?
Personally i think IBIS is limited for WA and portred size lenses.
After say 120mm FF my case 60mm EFL, OIS starts to have more effect.
My G80 has 5 stops dual IS II. And when i used it the first time it was a miracle.
Landscape sunsets handheld at 1sec…
One thing a floating sensor has is quicker heating up and microvibration due the coils around it to let it levitate. Causing night shots of landscape and stars to be less crisp as a fixed sensor system. (tripod) would suggest to turnoff any IS but the floating system of the sensor can’t be turned off in ILC’s. It needs to be pulled in the centre of the bay.
It’s a minor disadvantage agains the other advantages of IBIS.
An other big disadvantage of IBIS is shock absorbing ability. When it’s powered down the sensor is ratling lose in it’s cage so to speak. So shaking the body sounds like it’s broke inside and something is came lose.
Driving along very bumpy roads it’s best to have it seated in absorbing foam or lying on it’s back lens facing upwards and even then a classic mirrorslapping body can handle that abuse better.
On my 100-300mm (efl 200-600mm) i have dual ISii and that works pretty well. OIS and IBIS seems to work together well.
The problem begain on my body, i found out my g80 didn’t had the posibility to set minimum shuttertime in A-priority which my old fz200 did have.
There aproach was Intelligent Auto ISO. (movement wile halfpres for focus ment higher iso and shorter ss.) which isn’t as good as set your own minimum shutterspeed by the way. S-priority isn’t the same because then you fixate Shuttertime and let ISO and Aperture be the autosetting.
Same as highspeed video 120fps. Nope. No feature on the g80 wile they had 4k specials as photo feature…
Didn’t used it much but it (slowmotion) was a fun feature for sports and flying objects.
Ok probably the dmc G9 could be the answer but well investing hunderds of euro’s and ending up with a bigger and better body?
Not enough clicks on the body to support that investment.
But stil for many lazy shooting , snapping about, on holiday’s and such IBIS was helping the small sensor size m43 is to cope with lowerlight situations as long as the scene hadn’t a moving object in the frame.
Thus for many people a m43 as bringalong is still very atractive aldoh the new mirrorles smallbody’s in APS-C and FF with small lenses are overtake hard.
Limited focal lenght offcoarse if you keep weight and size within resonable lugging around aspects.
Ah lunchbreak is over, and it’s pooring rain, great i have to walk a few 100 meters…
@Stenis do you remember the Sony α77 (and some other Sonys as they pushed out huge numbers of slightly different models)? The SLT (single lens translucent) with a mirror which remained in place because it was translucent?
Sony copied that concept from Canon F1 high speed (1971), also Nikon F2 HS (around 1980? based on F2 Titan): These SLRs used a translucent instead of a moving mirror, letting ⅓ of the light to the finder and ⅔ to the film, so there was never a blackout. The Canon F1 highspeed was delivering up to 9 fps in 1971/72 and used a 10 m roll and a special high speed motor drive. Nikon delivered up to 10 fps, but needed a motor drive with 20 AA cells or 4 special rechargeable batteries, delivering the 30V output.
Yes, th longer the FL, the more the sensor would need to move - this is far easier done inside the lens. IBIS with OS can be very useful in longer focal lengths. I just tried some comparisons with the new Sign 500/5.6 and the not so new Nikkor 500/5.6 PFE.
The Sigma and the Lumix 5S II (no new firmware as it will only be release April 21st) surprised me, handheld ⅛ sec could be used, 1/15 sec is ok and if I’m lucky I could get away with ¼
And for astro I use the fp-L without any IBIS.
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Could you explain that to me?
And what is meant with OS? Do you mean the stabilisation in the lens?
George
I can only speak for myself, but I found this fascinating article that I can relate to:
Should You Switch from DSLR to Mirrorless?
I also started to read the responses.
For the sake of this discussion, I’ll compare shooting with my almost 20 year old D3, and my friend’s new Nikon Z8. The points the article discusses are very valid.
I enjoy shooting with my D3 (when I don’t need more resolution, in which case I use my D780. Nice viewfinder, clear, and what I am staring at is the IMAGE. With my friend’s Z8, the “view” did not look as nice as what I see through my viewfinder, and it was so covered up with computerized data and other stuff, that I found it annoying. The photos I took with the Z8 were no better than what I took with my own camera - I thought they were worse. The Z8 captures so many images in a day’s shooting that my friend is weeks behind in catching up, and hasn’t yet even viewed the images he took last week - I’m guessing he has multiple thousand’s of images to go through.
I think it’s more important to SEE the image, with no distractions, and try to capture the perfect moment.
@Joanna posts images here that are always outstanding, on her several-year-old D850, and her LV camera which has no electronics whatever. By taking her time, she gets a spectacular image. Amazing that it is so good, with no electronics involved. And while her D850 has a million and one configurable settings, she turns them all off. (I asked for her help in adjusting the camera settings - Joanna makes it easy, she turns all those special functions OFF - which I did too.
I’m not going to argue about one camera vs. another - I’ve already made my choice. The article I linked to mentions things that I “feel” but don’t really think much about. Then there are all the “masters” of photography, who used ancient camera gear, but got superior images because of THEIR ABILITY, not the camera. It’s not the camera - it’s the photographer.
I’m not interested in changing anyone else’s mind, just my own, and I judge my own results, for better or worse, on what I did or did not do, not which camera I used. If I want a larger image, my 12 or 24 megapixels may or may not be enough. Instead of spending more $$$ on “gadgets”, if it was important to me, I’d go for more megapixels, or a larger image size, or both. (My dream camera is still a Nikon D5 or D6.)
My latest goal is bird photography, and which camera I use is far less important than which lens I need to buy, to capture a good image (sharp, good color, no noise (thanks, PhotoLab) and not pixelated …and something I can afford.
My images may or may not be that good - other people, such as @platypus, change the image in many ways, which I’m still trying to understand. Maybe the word for that is “style”, and most of us have our own style I think. For me, if a bird is looking at something, I feel it’s necessary to provide more “space” in the direction a bird is looking, even if it messes up the image in other ways…
In the meantime, a summary of how I think is:
“Do the best you can with what you’ve got.”
…along with PRACTICE.
I can relate to that - every time I capture an image, I’m always thinking to myself how could I improve what I just did. From photojournalist, I feel I must first capture AN IMAGE, so it’s in the bag, and then consider how to do it better. With birds, this is tough, because while I’m thinking, they have likely moved or flown away…
Anyway, enough of that. Everyone should try to use the camera gear that is best for them, not what’s best for others. I have no desire to debate this - just posting what I think, which may, or may not, be helpful for others.