Speaking which… don’t leave home without enough gas!!!
Photo from yesterday:
mirrorLESS! it’s in the name, you stubborn old fool! And the marketing blurb was addressing simple minded persons who also would buy a horse with two water barrels mounted as a camel.
“Seen” doesn’t mean “used”, and seeing a black DSLR with “Nikon” in front of the viewfinder is hardly enough reason to talk about. But you constantly talk about “mirrorless features” and you never used a mirrorless although you might have seen some. And here you are, spreading second or third hand opinions around as if you know anything about.
The D750 was a very poorly equipped successor of the D700 (indicating its name logic). I had one and wasn’t wasting any teardrop at selling it.
Man, now it’s time to face your incompetence! Knowing nothing at all about mirrorless, it’s you who should shut up. Silent shutter is possible in Z models as well as D850 and not exclusively for your D780!
See Mike, this kind of stupid, stubborn arguing about just falls back on you. Pretending you were the only one understanding a D780 here, is downright cheeky and foolish.
One more proof for your incompetence! Where is the EVF? Where is the CF-E card slot? Where are the two fn buttons in the wrong place? Where’s the drive mode button? Nikon took NONE of the hardware components, they just borrowed a lot from the Z software set and threw out the old LiveView settings of the D750 which were not very useful.
Prefer what you want, just don’t call an optical viewfinder behind a mirror and with a matte screen between lens and eye a “real one”! If you use your OVF to focus manually, you’ll never get perfect sharpness. The real plus of the OVF is only “no energy consumption”, for anything else modern EVFs are the better choice.
Perhaps, but also perhaps you should research a little more:
Perhaps here:
The Nikon D780 is almost a one-of-a-kind camera. It’s got D5 autofocus tech in the viewfinder, and Z6 tech in live view. … This makes the D780 an excellent hybrid of pinnacle DSLR tech and current mirrorless features.
If you enjoy the experience of shooting through an optical viewfinder but want access to mirrorless tracking and video specs, then you’re who this camera suits. It’s an absolute joy to shoot as a traditional DSLR. Nikon’s 3D tracking is still amazing. The viewfinder is big, bright, and beautiful to look through.
Hit the button for live view, and now you have a Z6 with DSLR ergonomics. The full Z6 autofocus system is present, as are all of its video features, sans IBIS. If this camera had a joystick and IBIS, it would be incredibly hard to fault it. I’ll admit, I didn’t understand why anyone would want this camera when it was announced. Now that I’ve spent time with it, I want one.
If I wanted a Mirrorless Camera (which I don’t), I would have waited and bought the Z8 (which I didn’t). Nor do I want the big and expensive Z9.
Technically, my Leica M10 is a Mirrorless Camera. I’m happy for you that you’ve found what you like. Not sure why we’re even doing this silly discussion here.
__
Oh, and for @Joanna, I returned my Sigma lens this morning. I’ll be searching for a suitable substitute, preferably from Nikon, if I can afford it. It’s either that, or worrying about pixilation. I guess I technically have “champaign taste with a beer wallet”. Both B&H, and KEH, have some interesting possibilities.
And, if you look at your shooting menu, you may well find that the (optional) silent live view shutter has been activated.
Any camera that allows Live View is working “mirrorless”. The D780 is no different apart from the autofocus it borrows from the Z series. But then the D850 can also autofocus in live view https://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_info/technical_solutions/d850_tips/d-movie/focus/
The question that remains to be answered is - can you hold your camera at arm’s length to see the live view screen with a heavy zoom on it and then zoom and pan whilst following a moving subject?
My heavy lens will be supported by the monopod my friend gave me.
Can I:
Right now, if I care about pixels, I can’t do that regardless of what camera or lens I’m using, if I try to get close. I can’t with my D780, and can’t with my friend’s Z8. I need a LOT of practice, and maybe I’ll never get good enough to do this. To me, the Z8/Z9 are as good as it gets. Maybe if/when the Z10 comes out, I’ll reconsider.
So, my answer to your question is “no, I can’t”. Yet. Even with a monopod.
And that is my point. Neither could I. Live View was never intended for serious handheld photography. Therefore, it really isn’t a mirrorless camera unless you use it on a tripod
This discussion points out the benefits of using Live View sometimes. The one that hit me was shooting with my camera at ground level, which I did all the time when shooting racing shots of high speed radio control cars - before that, I bought a right angle viewfinder for my D2/D3 cameras.
Read the responses, not just the headline.
I have never yet tried to use Live View on my D780, but I’ll make a point of doing so next time, just to see how it works (or doesn’t).
Maybe not a the time of its invention and for sure not at the moment of it’s adaptation for DSLRs, but today things are different. I used LiveView of the Canon G11 and Nikon P7800 more than a decade ago to get waist level shots in landscape and portrait mode. Unfortunately Nikon had a hard time to come to terms to use fully articulated screens on their mirrorless attempts. As of today, the Z30 (no EVF, though), the Zc and the Z8 have a display which as well can be used in portrait mode a lower angles. The D780 falls as short as most Nikon models in this aspect.
The ability to hold my camera way over my head, and look up at the screen, has been as useful to me as the ability to set my camera on the ground, raise the screen, and look straight ahead. I used to have to buy Nikon’s right-angle viewfinder to do this. Any kind of “tool” might seem worthless, until you need it.
Gee, I’m not sure how to even define “serious photography”. What are your definitions?
Joanna’s comments, and @Wolfgang’s comments, (and others) had a huge impact on me regarding pixelization. If I want to avoid that, I need to fill my screen with my image, no thoughts of cropping. That complicated my thought process quite a bit, and will likely cost me between $500 and $1,000 to get an “appropriate” lens. …or crop as little as possible.
When you get older, you’ll realize that this has nothing to do with “today”. It was true ten years ago, twenty, even fifty, and more. The rangefinder film cameras replaced what was in use before that, and this goes on, and on, and on. Rangefinder cameras mostly replaced the other types. Then SLR replaced rangefinders. Then digital replaced film. And DSLR replaced SLR. Now the latest craze is Mirrorless. Who knows what will happen in five or ten or twenty years, with one million megapixel sensors, and a totally new type of lens.
Me? I’m completely guilty of living in the past. I love my Leica cameras, and I love my Nikon D3, and even my 1960’s Nikon SP. Dump on me all you want. Photography for me is a hobby, and I use what I enjoy - but if someone was foolish enough to pay me for photographing a wedding, things would be different. And as of today, I’m in no mood or financial status to replace all my cameras and lenses with the latest technology. It’s not what your Sony (or whatever) can do to what Joanna can do with her D850 - it’s what YOU can do, and what JOANNA can do. The camera technology is mostly secondary. IMHO.
Again it’s you not doing a proper research. Adding to the already not available Z 6 functions are the lack of IBIS (and I suspect you don’t even know what that means) and the (maybe superfluent) joystick. Superfluent because one can move the focus points either by D-pad, touchscreen or joystick. I can’t see the benefit of “three ways to do the same”. Just a lot jobs for one single thumb…
Contrary to our D850 the D780 can use its mechanical shutter in LV. That’s an advantage of its LV, and the use of old DSLR lenses without an adapter, but with the same shortcomings they have compared to dedicated mirrorless lenses. And I saw reviews which said it’s LV is rather unreliable and slow in low light, same as Z 6 in low light. The DSLR AF module is rated to -2 … +20 EV, whereas the Z 6 II is rated -4.5 … 19 EV.
Yes, I’ve known about IBIS and I feel that might be very handy for me someday.
I’ve read about what I can, and cannot do with silent shooting, and the D780 does have that capability, but I don’t do anything nowadays where this would be helpful, and to be honest, when I used the Z8 in silent mode, I missed the familiar sounds from the camera. If I’m shooting in a place where this is important, I would use either that, or the “Quiet” mode.
If IBIS was available, I would want it, but not at the expense of having switch to a non-DSLR. The joystick - it’s easier to just use the already provided controls. I know it has a touch-screen, but I haven’t made much use of it yet.
You don’t post many photos here, maybe you could do so to illustrate why the same photo couldn’t have been taken with a DSLR?
Back to Mirrorless, what Ray enjoys the most, is the ability to “track” the eyes of people or animals. That is one of the very few things that push me towards the new technology, along with showing the exposure on the screen, and the ability to see that screen either on the rear view screen, or the eyepiece. While I was fascinated with all the computerized stuff shown on that screen, I prefer the simple screen I get with my viewfinder now. With the Z8 the “image” was overlaid with to much technical stuff, I missed seeing the simple image I see now. …of course, none of this stuff matters very much - we all have choices, and can buy whatever we prefer, and for that matter, I can continue shooting with my almost two decades old D3 when I choose to.
The D3 is still good for most of my “walkabout” photos. The D780 I’m sure is technically better, as @Joanna always reminds me. Here’s one from this morning:
There is a tiny bit of vignetting added, because I liked it.
Are you looking for a zoom or tele prime?
I’m looking for a zoom, not a tele-prime.
I started looking for a lens with 600mm at the long end.
I think I would be fine with 500mm.
I would prefer the lens to be reasonably light.
I would prefer it to have a tripod foot.
I think $500ish would be an affordable price, used.
The best candidate I’ve found over the past few days is this:
Affordable zoom for Nikon DSLR for bird photography
Until I find one, I’ll be using this:
Nikon VR ED AF-P Nikkor 70-300mm 1:4.5-5.6 E
https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/70-300mm-vr-afp-fx.htm
To be honest, I think I can do most of what I want with my existing lens, but for flying birds, as that would result in too much cropping.
Thanks for any suggestions!!
My suggestion for Nikon F mount is the Tamron 150-600/5-6.3 Version 2 (stay clear off version 1!). I had a Sigma 150-600/5-6.3 sports before. „Sports“ means here, muscle training for the photog. It‘s robust and weather sealed and rather (front) heavy.
Why the Tamron and not one of Nikon‘s option (80-400, 200-500)?
- Tamron knows how to design sturdy lens collars with Arca dove-tail, Nikon‘s too stupid to do that and has some pretty bad examples of poorly designed lens collars. The Tamron collar is removable and saves 200 grams of weight (weight with collar: 2100 grams)
- Tamron has 3 focus limiter settings (close-up to 10 meters, 10 meters to infinity and Full) Nikon usually only two and you‘re doomed if you‘d like to limit AF from close-up to mid range.
- Contrary to Nikon, Tamron lets me micro-adjust AF within the lens: 4 different distances at 4 different focallengths. Evens out some AF issues. But needs a special USB-dock (extra costs). Plenty of „fun“
, as it takes ages to do, but after that AF is more reliable and precise. Nikon has only one setting for AF microadjustment (in camera). - The zoom ring of the Tamron has a brake element which keeps the zoom position in place when activated - no creeping when pointing the lens upwards, but when needed I can override it.
- The VC of the Tamron is reliable. With Nikon 300 PF-E i.e. there were issues in the beginning, when shooting at certain shutter speeds around 1/250 was more blurred with VR than without.
It took Tamron nearly a year to make their 150-600 compatible for the FTZ-adapter, but 2019 it happened and I could use it for F- or Z mount.
The Tamron 100-400 is equally good, reasonably priced, just at shorter focal lengths and very usable not only for birds but also butterflies (good close-up distance)
Weight comparison:
Tamron 150-600 V2: 2100 grams
Tamron 100-400: 1350 grams
Nikon 80-400 (March 2013): 1570 grams
Nikon 200-500: 2300 grams
That’s easy.
As soon as a special lens is needed, it’s very unlikely you could adapt it to your Nikon DSLR, as F-mount is one of the largest flange distances from film/sensor to mount plane. Here was a T/S lens involved, in that case my first Canon lens, adapted to L-mount. The Canon TS 17 mm is about 1k$ less expensive than a Nikkor TSE19 mm.
Needless to say, the OVF is simply not precise enough to adjust tilt movements for gaining more DOF. Here’s already a bunch of reasons to use LV, plus the adaption problem you simply can only solve by buying genuine Nikon T/S lenses at rather steep prices.
This image was taken at f/5.6 and tilted to gain maximum DOF.
In this example I liked to reduce DOF which is not easy to with a 17/4 mm lens, and keeping straight lines upright:
Next example is eye-focus. You would not get the eye pin sharp with a DSLR through his hands:
If sharpness in macro is critical, and OVF has nothing to offer against LiveView and enlarged view:
Now, I challenge you: Which photo you could only make with a DSLR, using OVF, but not with a mirrorless, using its EVF? Come on, should be easy for you 
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I guess that is about as clear that can be said @JoJu :-). Will be interesting though to see how many that still won’t get that.
@Stenis well, there’s one suspect 
I’m expecting to declare his infinite love to DSLR just because he used it for some decades 
some people just love to live in their misconceptions like in a once nice, now shattered house. Which is fine, I think, as new houses aren’t always better.
Nice post, but I wish it had been posted before all the needless arguments, from people who don’t even own or use the camera we’re talking about.
I come here to enjoy myself, learn, and discuss things with a great bunch of people… no desire to argue.
Thanks for all the advice - will talk to my Nikon friends who photograph birds, as to which lens that I can (afford to) buy.
With all respect, don’t forget this is not a Mike Meyers forum.
It evidently fills a need. A few posts with technical input are more instructive than all those posts of yours. You can learn from them too.
George
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