Part 2 - Off-Topic - advice, experiences, and examples for images being processed in DxO Photolab

DxO PhotoLab
771

As is the D100, the D200, the D810 and the D850.

Quoted from your fanboy article…

The Nikon D780 was a confusing camera to me when it was announced. It was an improved D750, with a Z6 trapped behind the live view button

So, the only really difference is that, when using live view, it borrows some technology from the Z6. Big deal! I occasionally use live view for some studio work - how about you Mike? When did you last use live view for photographing birds in flight?

but want access to mirrorless tracking and video specs

So the guy is talking it up because he does video with the rear screen.

This article is a whole load of the kind of hype, which will sell a totally unnecessary upgrade to those suckers who will fall for it. I will repeat - the D780 is not a mirrorless camera - it simply uses some mirrorless sensor technology only when in live view, which can possibly benefit videographers.

772

Nope. But that’s because it is set to SL1 (silent Iive view with full frame) - SL2 allows for faster shooting rates but only in 24 x 16 frame size.

But, you are right that, unless you select SL mode, the mirror does make an awful racket.

Gee, does that make my D850 a mirrorless camera :wink:

773

Of course it doesn’t do that with the viewfinder, or it couldn’t also be used as a DSLR. It can now be used either like a Z6, as that’s where the new hardware came from, or as a DSLR.

I have no idea yet what it’s like as a Mirrorless camera, as in I’m only trying one thing at a time. I may try the other system out in a week or two.

As for me, I am certainly not ready to change from DSLR to Mirrorless. And even if I was, the only mirrorless camera I want is a Z8, and I won’t buy that until they change a few things. Nor do I want a Z9. Maybe there will be a D880 eventually. And I just ready that Nikon has updated the firmware for their D6, another camera I can’t afford. And for what it’s worth, I’m certainly not interested in replacing all my lenses with Z lenses.

In a few weeks, I’ll report back on what it’s like when shooting as a mirrorless.

774

You’d need to buy the non-existent mirrorless sensor upgrade kit with all related hardware. :slight_smile:

You don’t do bird photography or sports photograph - what would you gain, even if you could? :slight_smile:

775

Did some research. In silent mode the D850 is using the electronic shutter. o the mirror is up and the curtains are open.

From that

When silent photography is in effect, the mirror will only be audible when it is raised and lowered at the start and end of live view. Note that during burst photography, focus and exposure are fixed at the values in effect at the start of each burst.

George

776

I think I need to drop out of this part of the discussion. This person describes what I feel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp7dn-KiRJc

I guess it depends on what I’'m doing, but it depends even more on what I’ve got.
Reminds me of all the silly old internet “fights” over Canon vs. Nikon".

For the best photographers in this forum, I don’t think they would be better with one camera over another - it’s the photographer that counts, not the gear. But the gear must be “good enough” for the photographer to work his magic. Sony vs Canon vs Nikon vs whatever, so what? The photographic geniuses from long ago didn’t have any of that modern stuff.

But back to me, if I don’t want all of you dumping on me because of lack of pixels, I need to find an acceptable solution that I can afford.

777

Bravo!
I was wrong.

778

About Helen’s photo - are those “rocks” or “eggs”?
Nice photo, but I’m just too curious about that sort of thing.
Maybe some kind of fungus???
I meant to ask earlier.
Lovely photo, and I’m probably not supposed to ask stuff like that…

779

Serious question regarding the cropping…

Until now, my thoughts have been based on whether my photo is of a bird, to go into the bird discussion forums,

or…

what I think I have been told here is that the whole image is what counts, including both the bird, and its surroundings, to maybe be mounted on a wall.

I may very well be wrong, but my thoughts are you created a wonderful photo for the birding forums, and I attempted to create an interesting photo including both the bird and its surroundings.

I’m most curious as to what @Joanna thinks about this.

If I printed one of these two images, to hang in my home, I would prefer the one I created - but I have no intention of doing that.

(…and a side bonus of using a larger crop is that any resulting pixelization is minimized - which may or may not be relevant.)

(…and also, is the photo to be thought of as “art” or “a portrait/encyclopedia image)”)

780

Let’s take a step sideways: Communicating is best done in a way that targets the audience. An engineer might want to hear things that differ from what an accounting executive who will also say different things about an item than the engineer. Bridging the gaps between all involved is the tricky part, even if it’s just about a teapot.

As for images, photos, pictures etc.: They too can communicate and the photographer, editor, framemaker can help to communicate whatever the message and target audience is intended to be.

( to be continued )

781

No, it‘s not, no matter how stubborningly you repeat Nikon‘s marketing blurb. It‘s lacking an EVF which is part of almost every decent mirrorless system and therefore the claimed „mirrorless“ features are rather useless in most situations, especially the ones a decent finder is needed. Try to get some birds in D780‘s „mirrorless“ mode.

This camera remains a DSLR with some improved LiveView features, but it is bulkier and less comfortable to use than say a Z 6 or Z 5. It‘s a camera for people hesitating to trust mirrorless after some decades of DSLR use. And your statement is nothing else than to say an amphibic car is also a race-boat just because you can drive it with a helmet on. :grin: :rescue_worker_helmet:

1 Like
782

You had a D800, I assume? Then you’re incorrect. In LV mode a couple of Nikons lowered the mirror to refocus and measure exposure which made LV only useful in really static situations. @George is correct, D750 also has that behaviour. Never had a D700, so can’t say about that.

Just bear in mind, Nikon was the last camera manufacturer coming out with a mirrorless full frame system. After their neither well designed nor successful system 1 which barely survived for 6 years after introduction in 2011. Then Nikon came up with Z system, less plasticky but overpriced lenses and some flaws and design characteristics of their series 1 could be found in Z.

783

I try to imagine any Nikon designer after reading the majority of your posts to jump on and design a camera according to your demand. On one side, this imagination exercise is too hard to avoid :joy: on the other side some of their design decisions could have been taken by listening to other Mikes :roll_eyes: To clarify, I’m only talking about the first versions of Z 7 and Z 6 with tons of cons. After that I lost interest in carrying on with Nikon.

784

Hi Joju and thanks for the reinforcement.

I just found an interesting article in the “Nikon School”, in addition to @George’s link, which leads me to think that it might not all be marketing, but more bloggers exaggerating a “feature”…

Let me quote…

Since the imaging sensor constantly streams data for the LCD display during Live View, the mirror must be continuously held up while Live View is in use. When you press the shutter there’s a brief interruption to the Live View display as the camera drops the mirror, focuses and then quickly flips the mirror back up to capture a shot, after which Live View resumes. While this is fine for static scenes like landscapes, still lives and macros, it can make it tricky to get a good shot if your subject is moving or requires precise timing.

• As it’s more difficult to hold a camera steady when composing on the LCD screen, Live View is best used with the camera on a tripod.

So, @mikemyers, the Nikon School does not recommend waving the camera around in Live View mode, especially if you are not using the silent mode.

I, JoJu and others have also been trying to convince you that the D780 is not a mirrorless camera…

I love the simile :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Well, almost, I had a D810 and, yes, that does do the mirror flip, but I now have a D850 and, as @George notes, that has the silent mode, which keeps the mirror up all the time you are in LV mode.

I think you misread - he mentions the D850 :wink:

The overriding fact is that, even if a camera uses Live View, I, for one, would not want to try swinging it around with a heavy long lens attached, trying to catch distant moving objects, all at arm’s length, so I could see the screen, especially in bright light - all while trying to keep my fingers on the right places to alter focus, exposure, etc and to press the shutter.

Mind you, it would be interesting to see what Mike can do without dislocating a shoulder, since he is so insistent :grinning:

By the way, when I use the D850 in Live View, on a tripod, it has this wonderful focus peaking feature, which allows me to see what is and what isn’t in focus by outline the sharp edges - at least in manual focus. Now, that is one heck of a useful tool when you are playing with narrow depth of field subjects like still lives.

785

You had a D800, I assume? Then you’re incorrect. In LV mode a couple of Nikons lowered the mirror to refocus and measure exposure which made LV only useful in really static situations. @George is correct, D750 also has that behaviour. Never had a D700, so can’t say about that.

He and I meant the movement of the mirror with that behaviour.

George

786

I was referring to George’s post

On my Nikons, D700 and D750, when shooting in LV the mirror goes up and down. Is that not the situation for the D850 and D780?

George

I also like to thank you for reasoning along the same line. I would disagree on some of your lens recommendations but that’s not important, each user has his/her own reasons to prefer one over the other and no lens is perfect for everybody.

Hmmm, my first thought was a comparison between average age of bloggers and SLR and DSLR users. Meaning, how much experience do they have with “old” concepts?

My second thought was “how will bloggers make their blog attractive to companies to lend them pre-production models?” And as soon as a new camera is officially announced, YT is flooded by “tests” to these bloggers. Which then generates more clicks on their blogs and makes it even more attractive for i.e. Nikon to provide them with new models with some “hints of advantages” to report of. Win-win situation, but only for bloggers and manufacturers. There are not many “half year experiences with model XY” videos and even if so, I think a lot of us amateur / hobby users are jumping from ship to ship if we can afford doing so. Also, the manufacturers prefer “new features over decent and robust technology”.

Lately, I opened a Nikon 1 lens (10-30, equiv 27-81 mm FF) to find out why the finder remained dark at some focal lengths. To put it mildly, I was shocked how cheap and poor the lens is designed, a clear throw-away-product. At the same time the moulds of the plastic parts were state of the art. Some contacts on teh zoom tube were bent. Now it’s working again, but I only use the 70-300 (equiv. 181-841 mm). Birds don’t find it as threatening than a 150-600 or 500 on FF).

Worth to mention: In silent mode = electronic shutter you can’t use electronic flash and have to use lamps. Which need to be high frequency, else some shutter speed would cause a zebra pattern.

Exactly! In my attempts and test rows to adjust AF (in D850 / 810 / 800) the AF in LV was practically every time a tad more precise than the AF of the camera’s dedicated AF sensor. At least before adjustment and for some lenses even after that, depending on the subject’s distance. That’s no matter if you’re always a f/10, but at f/1.4 or faster AF of a DSLR becomes a try and error guess. A common thing for all indirect focus systems and becoming more of an issue with high MP sensors as one can dedicate it more easily at 100% view. I need to keep in mind how close I had to get to a print and seeing this differences.

As you may remember, Nikon published a list of “recommended lenses” when the D800 was the first DSLR coming with a 36 MP sensor. I believe your beloved 28-300 was not on that list (for good reasons, wide open it’s soft), as well as some gold-ring Nikkors which were designed 10 years before the D800 came out. Could not find the original list, but even DxOMark made some test (only about possible resolution, other characteristics were excluded).

787

Heheheh. I have two Metz flashes sitting in a cupboard, that I have never used since the higher ISOs became available. In combination with DeepPRIME, I still haven’t had any need.

For studio work, I use LED panels and, with the reasonably slow speeds necessary, I haven’t yet seen that problem.

Well, I rarely shoot wide open, preferring the optimum f/10 for most shots, to maximise depth of field without invoking diffraction. It’s a great take anywhere, optimise in PhotoLab lens.

Apart from that, I also use prime lenses at 20mm, 35mm, 85mm and 105mm for when it really matters.

788

I don’t feel like arguing this, especially so since none of you seem to understand the D780. I just took a “live view” image with my D780, and it silently captured the image, without the mirror moving at all. When it comes to the D780, none of you know what you’re talking about - but were it a D750, or D850, you would then be correct.

Nikon took the components and software from the Z6, and built that into the D780. What the Z6 does, the D780 does, other than for the viewfinder which the camera needs to work as a DSLR. So you have DSLR technology with the viewfinder, and mirrorless technology with the rear view screen, and the camera switched on for “live view”.

(Quoting from old articles on previous models of Nikon cameras with live view is meaningless for discussions on the D780.)

And I’ll add that my birdwatching friend Ray bought the Z6, and for various reasons, didn’t like it for shooting action photos of birds. The newer Z9 and Z8 (essentially the same camera) solved those issues. For me, I prefer the view through a conventional DSLR viewfinder, but that’s personal

If someone only wants a mirrorless camera, I agree with you, but there are those of us who prefer a DSLR. Me? I do not want a Z6, and while I love the features of the Z8, I prefer shooting with a real viewfinder, which I’ve done since the days of the Nikon F. Nikon’s marketing blurbs? The ones I have seen are quite factual.

Why did I buy my D780? Two reasons, it captures 4K video, and it is significantly improved over the D750 cameras (I had two D750’s). Viewfinder is just as excellent, and I wouldn’t trade it for any other camera - although I still have an itch for a Nikon D6. For the first year of ownership, I didn’t know it had “mirrorless technology” built in. Now I do, and I’ve read about it, but haven’t yet used it.

From what you write, you obviously have never seen a D780, or used one. Quoting from old articles about “live view” is irrelevant, as all that technology was replaced by technology and parts from the Z6.

789

You took what I meant, and put it into perfect words.

I suspect that for this forum, both the subject and the surroundings are equally important. Maybe I’m wrong. I was hoping to get more comments about this.

790

Agreed, the D780 is not a “mirrorless camera”, it is a camera with both DSLR and Mirrorless technology combined into one body. DSLR - use viewfinder. Mirrorless - use rear screen.

Call it whatever you wish. If the camera was only a “mirrorless”, I would not have bought it.