Part 2 - Off-Topic - advice, experiences, and examples for images being processed in DxO Photolab

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

But why would I want to give up on the D850 when my work is creating prints up to 36" x 24" without breaking into a sweat, straight out of the camera?

You wouldn’t, and if that was my goal, 36" x 24" prints, I would probably already have my own D850.

The D 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 cameras have a built-in grip designed to make it comfortable and easy to shoot in a vertical orientation. Not sure if you would care about this. For me, lighter weight was a major consideration, pushing me towards the D750, which was more comfortable to carry around than my D3. If that was important to you, you would likely buy “the grip”, but that would make your camera even heavier.

If Nikon were to release the D880, designed similarly to the D780, with both DSLR and Mirrorless functionality built in, I could see you buying one of those so you could also use the benefits of mirrorless technology if/when you wanted (maybe to let the camera track the focus of a person’s eye).

With the D6, the following might be good for you: The stellar combination of the D6’s high-resolution 20.8MP FX-format CMOS sensor and state-of-the-art EXPEED 6 image-processing engine enables class-leading ISO’s up to 102,400 (expandable to ISO 3,280,000) for glorious image quality in the widest range of lighting conditions and shooting scenarios.. …but I don’t think you need/want that.

Yeah, I’ve got my D2x. I might give it away to some of my friends in India. For me, the D3 was so much better. I doubt I’ll ever shoot with the D2x again. I would be quite happy to sell it. I know the D780 is “better”, but the D3 almost became part of my body. It was easier back then to know which settings to use. But it’s not a replacement for your Large Format camera, while the D850 probably is close enough most of the time for you.

Bottom line, I’m hoping I am done “buying”. I hope that within the next few months, I will also be shooting again with my other cameras as well as my D780.

(Not that it matters, but I don’t see myself upgrading my Fuji X100F to the newest model. And I certainly have no plans to upgrade my M10 into a newer Leica, not that I could even afford to do so.)

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

The D 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 cameras have a built-in grip designed to make it comfortable and easy to shoot in a vertical orientation. Not sure if you would care about this. For me, lighter weight was a major consideration, pushing me towards the D750, which was more comfortable to carry around than my D3. If that was important to you, you would likely buy “the grip”, but that would make your camera even heavier

You mean like this…

@mikemyers

If Nikon were to release the D880, designed similarly to the D780, with both DSLR and Mirrorless functionality built in, I could see you buying one of those so you could also use the benefits of mirrorless technology if/when you wanted (maybe to let the camera track the focus of a person’s eye).

No way José! If I can manage with an LF camera with no automations, why on earth would I change a perfectly serviceable D850 with just over 2,500 shutter actuations?

Then there’s the fact that the main reason for all that mirrorless stuff is to improve video photography. It’s just not that important for the average still shots.

Now, if you were to offer me the rumoured Fuji GFX150 plus replacement lenses…

@mikemyers

but the D3 almost became part of my body. It was easier back then to know which settings to use

Simply not true. The D850 is just as easy to use, as long as you don’t take a death spiral into changing the menus every time you shoot something different.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Then there’s the fact that the main reason for all that mirrorless stuff is to improve video photography. It’s just not that important for the average still shots.

I have always thought, and still do, that the MAIN reason for all that mirrorless stuff is to sucker people into replacing their perfectly good non-mirrorless cameras to replace them, and then to get them to replace all their old lenses too.

This trick reduced the value of the “older” cameras and lenses, making it easy to buy the “used” cameras for much lower prices. (Check out www.keh.com to see how inexpensive that old high-tech gear is nowadays!)

(When I bought my D780, I had no idea it included mirrorless technology - to me, it was buying a new DSLR. I was amazed when I read about the mirrorless stuff that came with it. I very much did want 4K video, realizing that HD video will soon become as un-welcome as SD video. If I am going to shoot video, I want it in 4K format - but I never shot all that much video anyway, and what I did shoot was with a “video camera”, long ago with film.)

@Joanna

No way José! If I can manage with an LF camera with no automations, why on earth would I change a perfectly serviceable D850 with just over 2,500 shutter actuations?

I wouldn’t expect you to do so, but for some types of photography (not what you usually do) the mirrorless technology does offer advantages. For shooting wildlife, apparently it is a huge help.

@Joanna

Simply not true. The D850 is just as easy to use, as long as you don’t take a death spiral into changing the menus every time you shoot something different.

I agree, the basic stuff is just as easy, but I never felt intimidated by the menu system of the D3 after a few weeks of using it. I’m pretty sure the D3 through D6, the D750, and the D850 are just as easy to use.

If I were to take a trip and bring only my D3 and my 24-120 lens, I think I would be content. The weak link in mike+photography is “mike”, not the photography gear.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

I have always thought, and still do, that the MAIN reason for all that mirrorless stuff is to sucker people into replacing their perfectly good non-mirrorless cameras to replace them, and then to get them to replace all their old lenses too

I would say that is absolutely incontrovertible.

@mikemyers

This trick reduced the value of the “older” cameras and lenses, making it easy to buy the “used” cameras for much lower prices. (Check out www.keh.com to see how inexpensive that old high-tech gear is nowadays!)

When we started LF photography, digital had just started and we were able to get our LF and MF gear for fantastic prices. Now, there is a resurgence of interest in film and, if we wanted, we could make a tidy profit selling our gear.

@mikemyers

When I bought my D780, I had no idea it included mirrorless technology

As does every reflex that has live mode. There’s a lot of hype and exaggeration, when the only “technology” amounts to using a sensor focusing system.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

As does every reflex that has live mode. There’s a lot of hype and exaggeration, when the only “technology” amounts to using a sensor focusing system.

Not sure how to respond, but by allowing the camera full access to the sensor, the camera can then do a lot of other functions (such as tracking) far better than before. By giving the camera full-time access to the sensor, the old ways seem “antique” by comparison. With no mirror to interrupt or delay things, and giving the camera all that additional information, many things that used to be impossible are now simple (by comparison). Cameras now no longer even need a “shutter”, as the sensor can be turned on/off as needed, as quickly as needed too.

To me though, none of that compensates me for no longer being able to see a live, real, image of what I’m taking a photo of. Instead, I get to watch a tv screen. No thanks. …most of the time. For wildlife photos, it’s more important for the camera to see best, than for me to do so with my eyes.

D3 - I went for a short walkabout, walking by the local yacht club, taking the D3 and only the “kit” 50mm lens. Impressions:

• Looking through the viewfinder and the top display, in Manual mode, it was easier to see how my selected exposure compared to what the camera suggested.
• The shutter sound seemed to be coming from an amplifier - it was SO much louder than what I’ve become accustomed to.
• The menu system felt like a “simplified view” of what I’m used to seeing. Not so many things to consider.
• The camera was certainly heavier than my other Nikons, but it seemed even easier to hold it “motionless”. Unexpectedly, it was very comfortable to hold, but then again, the stock lens is very light - I’m sure that had something to do with it.
• In five minutes, the controls all felt like I was back home again, and if anything, the D3 (thanks to the simplicity) was more fun to shoot with than the D780 - but for anything remotely serious, I’ll take the D780.
• Memories came back from decades ago, for how I could never afford the Compact Flash cards I wanted, and people on line were discussing any deals that became available. The card I was shooting with today holds only 4 GB of data. I could check with B&H or Amazon for a replacement, but unless I have a good reason to actually use the camera again, why?

For anything remotely serious, I’m sure I’ll be using the D780, but the D3 walkabout was fun. Nice memories…

[mikemyers]

Oh, not that anyone would care, but here’s one photo from my Walkabout this morning with my D3. It was released in 2007, and I got one of the first 10 cameras shipped to B&H Photo a lifetime ago. I used it for so many years, so long ago, that it was fun to do so again:

D3M_0189 | 2024-03-21.nef (24.3 MB)
D3M_0189 | 2024-03-21.nef.dop (15.9 KB)

As I stood on the walkway going around the Yacht Club, with a big “jumble” of ships, engines, stuff, and so on, with the city of Miami in the background - I wanted to capture what I felt, standing there. I took three photos like this, in three different places, but this is the only one that “worked”. Not very much editing either.

The Nikon D3 is a 12.0-megapixel professional-grade full frame (35 mm) digital single lens reflex camera (DSLR) announced by the Nikon Corporation on 23 August 2007 along with the Nikon D300DX format camera. It was Nikon’s first full-frame DSLR. The D3, along with the Nikon D3X, was a flagship model in Nikon’s line of DSLRs, superseding the D2Hs and D2Xs.

Perhaps I am the only person stupid enough in this forum to still want to use a digital camera from 2007! Guilty as charged.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

by allowing the camera full access to the sensor, the camera can then do a lot of other functions (such as tracking) far better than before. By giving the camera full-time access to the sensor, the old ways seem “antique” by comparison

But, in order to use all that “stuff” you are forced to use the rear screen, with all the inconveniences like not being able to see it clearly in sunny conditions, or having to hold it away from your head at some distance, which then means it is harder to see detail.

@mikemyers

With no mirror to interrupt or delay things

But you stlll have to wait whilst the sensor switches from viewing mode to taking mode.

@mikemyers

if anything, the D3 (thanks to the simplicity) was more fun to shoot with than the D780

I don’t know what you are doing to make your D780 such hard work - all I do with my D850 is to set the ISO, aperture and shutter speed, focus and press the shutter.

I think you have been spending far too much time looking at technical articles and videos and getting yourself all confused instead of getting out there and using it your D780 just like all your older cameras.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

But, in order to use all that “stuff” you are forced to use the rear screen, with all the inconveniences like not being able to see it clearly in sunny conditions, or having to hold it away from your head at some distance, which then means it is harder to see detail.

For me, you are right. For the rest of the world, they just look at the tv screen buried inside the camera.

Inconveniences? It’s all trade-offs, as in what I consider most important. I still prefer to use my viewfinder. If I bought a Z8, I would also be using my viewfinder (the small tv built into the camera).

@Joanna

I don’t know what you are doing to make your D780 such hard work - all I do with my D850 is to set the ISO, aperture and shutter speed, focus and press the shutter.

Infinitely better explanations than what comes in Nikon’s User Manual that comes with the camera.

You’re lucky - you already know everything you need to know.

I’d like to learn what is going on with the mirrorless stuff built into my camera, and I also need to learn how to do video better before I return to India.

[mikemyers]

You are the person who convinced me that I needed to be in control, not the automation, so my camera now is likely in (M)anual mode. But, all those gazillion settings that are included with my camera, including those that I know nothing about, are currently set to “something”.

If I don’t know what they are, and where they are set to now, I’ll never know if they are set to the appropriate settings for ME.

Suppose I take my D780, and restore the whole thing to factory settings.

You wrote:

@Joanna

…all I do with my D850 is to set the ISO, aperture and shutter speed, focus and press the shutter.

If I didn’t bring back the other settings you and the books suggested I would not be a very happy camper.

I’m pretty sure I know what you’re trying to tell me, but while you know exactly how to configure your D850, I’m not as smart at this as you, which is why I went through the YouTube videos long ago with suggestions on how to set up my camera.

If I’m still smart enough to understand the books, I think I will have a well set up camera, not just an “out of the box” camera.

Right now, I think I have the DSLR part of my camera configured correctly. I haven’t even started to understand the Mirrorless part of it yet.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

Suppose I take my D780, and restore the whole thing to factory settings.

@mikemyers

If I didn’t bring back the other settings you and the books suggested I would not be a very happy camper

Here is a list of the changes from default that I have made to the Photo Shooting menu…

Option	Default	Joanna
Extended photo menu banks	Off	On
File naming	DSC	JNA (for me)
Viewfinder mask display	Off	On
Image quality	JPEG normal	NEF (RAW)
NEF (RAW)	Large	RAW L
ISO sensitivity	100	400 or set on ISO button
White balance	Auto > AUTO0 Keep white (reduce warm colors)	K (Choose Color Temperature)
Choose color temp.	5000 K	5600 K
Set Picture Control	Auto	Custom - based on Flat with all levels at 0
Color space	sRGB	Adobe RGB
Auto bracketing set	AE & flash bracketing	AE bracketing
Multiple exposure		Change as and when required
Keep all exposures	On	Off
HDR (high dynamic range)		Only usable for jpeg, otherwise ignore
Focus shift shooting		Change as and when required
Silent live view photography	Off	Sl 1

As you can see, there are only 15 changes, which really never need changing again.

---

For Custom Settings…

Option		Default	Joanna
a2	AF-S priority selection	Focus	Release
a8	AF activation	Shutter/AF-ON	AF-ON only
b5	Matrix metering	Face detection on	Face detection off
c2	Standby timer	6 s	10s
	Live view	10 min	∞
d1	CL mode shooting speed	5 fps	3 fps
d2	Max. continuous release	200	50
d7	File number sequence	On	Off
d9	Viewfinder grid display	Off	On
d11	Live view in continuous mode	On	Off
d12	Optical VR	On	Only when not on tripod
e5	Modeling flash	On	Off
e6	Auto bracketing (mode M)	Flash/speed	Flash only
e7	Bracketing order	MTR > under > over	Under > MTR > over
	Fn2 button	Rating	MY MENU

---

The Setup menu is different for the D780 from the D850 but shouldn’t need too many changes.

---

I never change these for everyday shooting.

[mikemyers]

What you wrote is pretty much what I have now, but I’ve been following your suggestions on settings for years.

A few questions:
White Balance - why set to K rather than “Auto” for a starting point? When set to “K” you need to check the previous (last used) setting, assuming that gets saved for “next time”. I had my camera changed to K, 5600K, but I’ve been wondering why I do so, having no way to measure it.

Color space - I assume Adobe RGB is because you are mostly concerned with printing.

File number sequence - you have that set to OFF??? I’ve always set mine to ON, so file numbering doesn’t repeat for a very long time. If you have it set to off, and you search for a file name later, you might find dozens of images, rather than just one.

• ON: When a new folder is created, the memory card formatted, or a new memory card inserted in the camera, file numbering continues from the last number used or from the largest file number in the current folder, whichever is higher. If a photograph is taken when the current folder contains a photograph numbered 9999, a new folder will be created automatically and file numbering will begin again from 0001.

• OFF: File numbering is reset to 0001 when a new folder is created, the memory card formatted, or a new memory card inserted in the camera. Note that a new folder is created automatically if a photograph is taken when the current folder contains 999 photographs.

For the most part, all my basic settings are what I’ve learned from you, but there are SO many other settings to ignore or set.

I also have all the “Live View” settings that I don’t understand yet - one more reason for buying the books.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

White Balance - why set to K rather than “Auto” for a starting point? When set to “K” you need to check the previous (last used) setting, assuming that gets saved for “next time”. I had my camera changed to K, 5600K, but I’ve been wondering why I do so, having no way to measure it.

5600°K always used to be the “daylight” film norm. By setting my camera to that, I can quickly tell whether the light was actually warm or cold, relative to that. Then I’m not guessing or trying to remember what the light was like on that day.

If I wanted to get really fussy, I would use my Minolta Color Meter IIIF, which also gives me the Colour balancing green/magenta filter densities.

The 5600°K is just force of habit and it can be useful. But a lot of things like this are mainly there for taking JPEGs. RAW WB can always be changed after the event.

@mikemyers

Color space - I assume Adobe RGB is because you are mostly concerned with printing.

No, it’s because it gives me a wider colour gamut. My monitor is a P3 and I want to have as much as possible recorded on the sensor.

@mikemyers

File number sequence - you have that set to OFF??? I’ve always set mine to ON, so file numbering doesn’t repeat for a very long time. If you have it set to off, and you search for a file name later, you might find dozens of images, rather than just one

I always create a new folder for every download from the camera, so there is no chance of repeats. I never search on file name. My folder structure is…

Location or event
  - Year
    - Month
      - Day

And I use my own keywording and tagging app to write to the metadata of the image files, so I can search on Keywords, Finder Tags or Ratings, either from my app or in Finder.

@mikemyers

… but there are SO many other settings to ignore or set.

If you want to retain your sanity, ignore the majority.

---

@mikemyers

I also have all the “Live View” settings that I don’t understand yet - one more reason for buying the books.

I’d be of no help there since I hardly ever use Live View.

[George]

@Joanna

@mikemyers

Color space - I assume Adobe RGB is because you are mostly concerned with printing.

No, it’s because it gives me a wider colour gamut. My monitor is a P3 and I want to have as much as possible recorded on the sensor.

But that’s only important for the jpg, not for the raw.

George

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@George

But that’s only important for the jpg, not for the raw.

And, since that is what gets shown on the back of the camera, AdobeRGB allows me a wider gamut preview.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

The 5600°K is just force of habit and it can be useful. But a lot of things like this are mainly there for taking JPEGs. RAW WB can always be changed after the event.

Thank you; I “knew” the details, but your explanation sounds good as I’m only shooting in RAW. Just set the camera to 5600K and will adjust it when/if needed in PhotoLab.

@Joanna

I always create a new folder for every download from the camera, so there is no chance of repeats. I never search on file name. My folder structure is…

For as long as I can remember, I’ve been using PhotoMechanic to move my images onto my computer - the “folder name” includes a short description of what I was photographing that day.

PhotoMechanic now includes the “DAM” tools for helping me find my images later. One of these years, I’ll get it figured out. Right now, if I know the year, and hopefully the time of year, I can find my images - but your way sounds better, along with your file naming. If you always, use one camera this sounds simple. Do you ever use more than one camera?

I see you’ve changed your file name to use JNA instead of Nikon’s default DSC. I use those three letters to identify the camera I was using (750, 780, D3M, etc.). I suspect a lot of people in this forum could use your file naming method when they import images into PhotoLab, but they’ll need to adjust the camera to do so, as in your file-names starting with JNA.

@Joanna

No, it’s because it gives me a wider colour gamut. My monitor is a P3 and I want to have as much as possible recorded on the sensor.

Hmm, based on that reasoning, even though I rarely make prints, is “Adobe RGB” a better choice for me (all of us), because it “includes more information”? Long ago I was advised to use sRGB if I’m not printing. What might PhotoLab do differently, depending on what Color Space was selected? To say I’m “lost” about this would be an understatement. Does it actually make a difference for those of us who are not printing?

Live View…

@Joanna

I’d be of no help there since I hardly ever use Live View.

If/when I want to use the Mirrorless technology built into my D780, I will have to use Live View. Eventually. I greatly prefer to use my viewfinder, not the rear screen, but if/when I want to shoot my camera as a Mirrorless, there is no other option - as the mirror will be locked “up”. …eventually, not now.

[underexposed]

I scrolled through this thread, read some things and have one takeaway:

I think @Joanna and @mikemyers should meet up. Doesn’t have to be a romantic date (maybe it could be). If you live too far apart, maybe forum members could pitch in for tickets.

@mikemyers

Long ago I was advised to use sRGB if I’m not printing.

Not quite - use srgb if the final output medium is screens. Some printing services also want srgb (some even convert them to srgb before printing). Otherwise, before the final output, keep the widest colour space possible. Then you need to decide depending on the destination of your final image.

[George]

In the gamut of your monitor.

George

[eriepa (WIN11, PL9, FP7, VP4, NIK1)]

@mikemyers

Hmm, based on that reasoning, even though I rarely make prints, is “Adobe RGB” a better choice for me (all of us), because it “includes more information”? Long ago I was advised to use sRGB if I’m not printing. What might PhotoLab do differently, depending on what Color Space was selected? To say I’m “lost” about this would be an understatement. Does it actually make a difference for those of us who are not printing?

Mike, I assume you will be editing your raw files in DxO PL. The raw files will contain the same information, including color information, whether you choose sRGB or aRGB as the in-camera jpg setting. Unless you are very comfortable with color management, I suggest you keep things simple and select sRGB.

[mikemyers]

@underexposed

…use srgb if the final output medium is screens. Some printing services also want srgb (some even convert them to srgb before printing). Otherwise, before the final output, keep the widest colour space possible. Then you need to decide depending on the destination of your final image.

Well, to be precise, the final output goes to PhotoMechanic, and then to my macOS computer, and then to PhotoLab.

This led me to think that I should use sRGB, but my image editor, PhotoLab 6, maybe prefers the Adobe RGB?

About my flying to France, or Joanna flying to Miami, after an hour she would realize how much I don’t know, get frustrated with me, and fly home.

@eriepa

The raw files will contain the same information, including color information, whether you choose sRGB or aRGB as the in-camera jpg setting. Unless you are very comfortable with color management, I suggest you keep things simple and select sRGB.

I am quite certain I am NOT comfortable with color management!!!

I’m still trying to figure out how to understand what @Wolfgang did, and why, so I can repeat his way of making a blue sky.

[mikemyers]

Gee, it’s a rainy day outside, so I didn’t get to do the shopping I planned on. Bagels will need to wait for tomorrow. Between trying to digest what @Joanna posted, and reviewing the settings on my D780 and my D3, I made two changes to match what Joanna suggested. This, along with watching several YouTube photographic videos, and reviewing the documentation for my D3 (as I couldn’t remember what some of the settings did), and fiddling around with everything, took up most of my day. Meanwhile, the rain got better and worse, but never stopped. I happened to notice that three sailboats were in line, so I captured that with the D780. I was going to do the same with the D3, but the boats had moved back into their random, boring positions. So, I put the 300 on the D3 and took a photo of a sailboat with a pirate flag. I was wondering if anyone could instantly tell which image came from which camera.

To be honest, I’m glad I did so, but reviewing all these specs was making me tired. It’s amazing how much I forgot about the D3. When I was using it almost every day, I thought it fit me, and vice versa.

Here’s the two images from today - I will post the related files for both, if anyone wants to show me yet one more way in which I am mis-using the software, or perhaps how I could have used it better.