Off-Topic - advice, experiences and examples, for images that will be processed in PhotoLab

DxO PhotoLab
1068

With mirrorless cameras, including my Nikon Z fc, you can set the EVF to monochrome and easily adjust things like contrast and sharpness so you can better visualize what your monochrome image will look like while you’re capturing the image through the viewfinder. I find it much more useful than viewing an image in color that you’re intending to convert to black and white. Of course, the actual Raw file is still in color, but seeing it in black and white through the viewfinder can help with the framing and give you at least an idea of whether monochrome will work for that image.

If the Monochrom is a rangefinder, I’m guessing you’re still seeing the image in color through the viewfinder while you’re framing it.

Mark

1069

Yep. Leica is living in the old days and selling a camera “permanently loaded with B&W film”. And like in the old days, the photographer needs experience with B&W, to measure the contrast and to calculate the use of optical filters to darken or lighten colours along the same bandwidth. Just this time there other way round, as it’s not taking “panchromatic B&W film with a gap in blue tones” but working as a B&W positive film.

But one can add an EVF. To a rangefinder camera, for those who can also buy a synthetic rhythm generator to a church organ. Or simply shy away from looking like using a fat smartphone and holding it’s monitor 30 cm in front of the face.

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1070

@mikemyers this was discussed quite a bit before here, much of which still applies I guess.

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1071

As @danielfrimley points out, you’ve already asked that question, in a thread I started explicitly for discussing B&W work, but which rapidly got diverted into discussion of how wonderful Leica cameras are (not) and whether it was worth feeding the Leica propaganda machine.

To summarise…

Before digital cameras were invented, we used to produce wonderful B&W images by getting to know how colour filters worked, in front of the lens, because we couldn’t change anything once the image was committed to B&W film. The viewfinder showed us a colour image because it was an optical viewfinder.

With digital cameras we can either use physical filters on the lens or apply them using FilmPack’s filter emulations. Either way, you still get to see a colour image in the viewfinder, unless you use an EVF.

You can spend a small fortune on a certain fetish B&W camera but…

  1. The Leica Monochrome is not supported in PL6
  2. The RAW file is still an RGB file, not a greyscale file

So, you would be no further forwards than taking the image with any other digital camera out there.

We still have to do what we have always had to do since the camera was invented - learn how to visualise and take B&W images.

When we shot with film, spectral sensitivity depended on the film we chose. Most film was panchromatic but we could also obtain orthochromatic film, which is unable to capture reds. Some films, like Fuji Acros 100 is defined as orthopanchromatic, which is a mixture of the two and gives it such a beautiful rendering.

Even if we use a B&W emulation on the camera (EVF or rear screen), any filters we put in front of the lens are going to work on the panchromatic level because that is what the sensor sees.

My advice - use the camera as normal and use FilmPack to choose your film and filters.

Good B&W photography relies on much more than removing colour. There’s an interesting short article here. It’s not authoritative or comprehensive, but it mentions several important fundamentals.

Final thought - good B&W images are often harder to make than good colour images and need to be visualised before you take them, if at all possible.

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1072

… and here …

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1073

Wow! Well, that’s tonight’s viewing decided.

Quick example of orthochromatic film (Rollei Ortho 25)…

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… vs Fuji Acros 100…

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Which is why it’s not always possible to see a useful B&W preview in the camera.

1074

Yes, I have done that on both my M10 and D870, and yes, it does help me visualize what the scene might look like in B&W. The rangefinder window is just a “clear” opening, so it remains in color. I was asking more about all the zillions of other settings - should leave them the same as for color, or ???

Leica makes the Monochrom camera in several configurations, including rangefinder.

Yes, that sums it up nicely.

Yes, what little I know now came from those discussions, but after watching the video I linked to, I was wondering if there were better options than what I did before. For example, apparently using an “orange filter” to darken the sky no longer works on a camera designed for color photography. I was surprised to read that. Apparently this is because the color cameras have three “channels”, and b&w cameras (and the Monochrom) have only one.

What I learned from those earlier discussions was to shoot normally, and do all my work in PhotoLab, so I’ve been shooting with the same settings as I might use for color photography.

I’ve also learned that Kolari Vision can convert a “normal” camera to “full spectrum”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-spectrum_photography. But that’s not the same thing. Here is a better explanation of what a Monochrom camera can provide:
https://www.e-consystems.com/blog/camera/technology/a-short-guide-to-why-monochrome-cameras-have-the-edge-over-color-cameras/

Oh well, I’m getting too far off-topic, and I don’t have the thousands of dollars to spend. I’ll just do the best I can with the earlier advice noted above. …if I had the $$$ though, I’d likely buy a used Monochrom camera…

Thanks!

1075

Stop making life complicated :wink: the only thing that needs changing is the picture setting from colour to B&W.

As you have said, it’s not the camera that makes the picture, it’s the photographer. And, when it comes to B&W, that is even more relevant. At the level you are taking pictures, you’re not going to see enough difference to warrant the exorbitance of a dedicated monochrome camera.

It is so much easier to take in colour and then choose both film and filters - then you get the flexibility that you had when you used to choose which roll of film, rather than being tied to the one rendering that the camera manufacturer offers.

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1076

My M10 only shoots (raw images) in color. There is no such setting.

The M10 Monochrom creates 40 megapixel B&W (only) files.

If you watched the video, you wouldn’t say that - with the Monochrom, I would be WAY ahead in so many ways, no pun intended… :slight_smile:

Sadly, you are right. Unless I buy a Monochrom, I will do exactly as you noted.

Even if I buy an old M series Monochrom, it’s going to be around $4,000.
KEH used, old, Monochrom

The link you posted looks fascinating. Thanks for posting it.

(Sadly) I agree, but there are 4,000 reasons why I will follow your advice, once I get better at it.

1077

My life is always complicated. Years ago, it was easier and simpler.

Among other projects and fun photo trips, I used to spend many hours photographing monkeys in India, being careful not to get too close to them. Every so often, they posed for me in a way that I really enjoyed. I haven’t been taking photos lately, but I looked up this one to edit today.

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Hopefully at least some of you may enjoy it.
It may or may not be artistic, but it certainly is NOT a journalistic photo.

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1078

I never heard of this film before. I was editing a photo I took of the Empire State Building on a foggy day that I was going to B&H Photo, read your post, and. tried that film on one of my images. I have two impressions, just like when viewing your photos - it creates what looks like a terribly exposed photograph, but at the same time, it gives the image some kind of “character”.

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In color, it looked like what it was - a snapshot of the building on a rainy day, but not very interesting.
Using this “Rollei Ortho 25” changed it so much I now like it. It also killed any pretense at being photojournalistic.

1079

Terribly exposed - definitely not, beautifully exposed more like.

A snapshot - no. A very well composed shot with lovely separation between the foreground and the distant skyscraper; with leading lines from the bottom corners.

A really good B&W subject.

That’ll be a 9.9 out of 10 from both Helen and me.

1080

Thanks! Tell Helen that this put a smile on my face. :slight_smile:

1081

I’m looking for a recommendation for a DSLR and a DxO supported zoom combo - sounds like the D850 with the Nikkor 28-300 gets a lot of love here, what about Canon? Very good used is OK (I imagine new is a dwindling option) - budget £3000

Edit: Sorry, should add FF and I’ve never shot a video in my life and don’t plan to start now.

1082

“I never drew a circle and don’t plan to start now”… :thinking: how many things are you doing without having planned them? If you can say with certainty “I never did anything I hadn’t planned before” – fine. Sometimes the appetite comes when the food is on the table.

Besides, there are not many cameras around without video, but I guess you only wanted to let us know “video is of no importance to me”, right?

To recommend you a camera it would be interesting to know what your main subjects are or should be (planned or not) in the future? The 28-300 gets a lot of love from one single person using it at f/10. I will not recommend that shard, I owned it and found it rather “meh”. Long end weak, wide end lame.

And why on Earth do you want to invest in DSLR? It will be around for a while and for the bodies also plenty of good lenses. If you want to go cheap – second hand DSLR is a good way, chances are high to get excellent stuff at lower costs. Just with all the disadvantages coming with it. You have an APS-C mirrorless body with interchangeable lenses. What are you hoping to gain by going DSLR?

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1083

Unless (like me) you want something smaller and lighter, the D850 would be an excellent start. Here are three choices:
D850
KEH lets you return things if you’re not satisfied, but I would suggest the middle choice.

I don’t know enough to select a lens - if it was me, I would select any basic (inexpensive) lens to start with, and spend my time learning the camera. You can get the lens later. Or, if you’re already sure, here are four good choices and two more I would ignore:
28-300

Never having used one, I’ve got no comment, but there is also the newer one that I wrote about earlier, which is supposed to be better. …but you can pick any inexpensive lens to start with, and learn how to use the D850 before you get a big lens.

Maybe, like me, the mirrorless copies have too many disadvantages, and the better DSLR cameras are a proven product, that I never see anyone complaining about. But you are right, KEH cameras and gear are second hand, and third hand, and fourth hand, and… They give you a choice.

1084

I realise that @JoJu has his own, slightly distorted, sense of reality, but I have possessed and used this lens, almost daily and have never found it lacking enough to consider changing. I bought it based on Ken Rockwell’s review and have not been disappointed.

@JoJu has totally misinterpreted something I said about using f/10 all the time - something which is totally untrue as I am a proper photographer who doesn’t adopt rules just for the sake of them. He obviously needs to re-read my posts.

As for the camera, I bought the Nikon D850 because it was the last high spec reflex that Nikon were going to make and I just don’t personally like mirrorless EVFs.

Personally I find Canon cameras have noisier sensors and less dynamic range than, not just Nikon, but other makes as well. And I just like the look and feel of the Nikon DSLRs, to which I have added a battery grip to allow me to take portrait images without having to twist my wrists.

If I had unlimited funds, I think I might have gone for a Fuji system but I always have my LF camera for super hi-res work or when movements are required.

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1085

(If you do buy from KEH, at a minimum you get a 5% discount as a new buyer. There may or may not be a sale going on, which can save 10%. You can get the pair at the same time, knowing you can return something you’re not happy with. Also, the DSLR has a lot of advantages over a “mirrorless” that the camera manufacturers ignore, as they want to sell the new style stuff, including their new style lenses. My friend bought a mirrorless system, but is going back to his DSLR. I think @Joanna is a pretty good source of information and photos from the same gear you are considering. Only IF you were about to do a lot of video, the newest cameras might have some advantages, to go along with the disadvantages. Just my opinion.)

1086

Yup

Leica do three zooms for the CL APS-C. The model is discontinued so that will probably be it, using them gets 11mm - 135mm (17mm - 200mm ish FF), about £700-£1000 good used each, so let’s say £2500.

No specialism, anything and everything. I’m an amateur. Versatility, reliability, ease of use and image quality are my primary concerns.

To be frank, I’m pissed off with the handling of a teeny tiny, lightweight travel camera which has no weather sealing. It’s excellent in all I’ve highlighted above as important to me but I can’t get any kind of proper grip on it - I’m 196cm tall, 100kg with hands like back hoes, I’m attracted to the idea of an effing great lump of a thing which doesn’t require me to change lenses for every 25mm of focal length, takes great pictures and won’t give me nightmares about dropping it in a big muddy puddle or whacking it into a car door

1087

Thanks @mikemyers , I’m in the UK so they’re not readily an option but we do have similar type dealers :+1: