Take a look at Grays of Westminster. We’ve used them for years, even after moving to France. Their quality assessments on secondhand stuff are totally reliable and they can sometimes be persuaded to haggle on price. Mention my name as introducing you.
They currently have a D850 with only 6365 actuations (virtually new) and about three 28-300mm lenses in top condition.
Wow!!! You can ignore my personal favorites, as I’m the opposite of you, let alone just turning 79. I love my Leica, and my D780 is good for me, but bigger and. heavier than what I prefer - let alone that large and heavy (for me) lens.
However, the D850 probably is perfect for you - and if you can afford it:
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d6.html
Maybe you can find one used from “Grays of Westminster”. For a price guide, maybe this will tell you if it’s in your budget:
Used D6
It certainly won’t give you “nightmares about dropping it in a big muddy puddle or whacking it into a car door”.
Back when I was able to do so, I loved my D2 and D3 Nikons. The D6 is as good as it gets, and until Nikon comes to their senses, there’s unlikely to be anything better. But it’s way out of your suggested price range, and unless you’re going off to recording the fighting in Ukraine the D850 is likely far better suited to you. I did pick up a friend’s D4, and decided it would only be good for me for weight lifting.
Back to the real world - go to Gray’s, and ask if you can take their used D850 outside the store and shoot it long enough to decide if you want it.
If I were you, but you’re probably smarter, I would ONLY buy the camera and unless you already have one, any lens that you can use for learning the camera with. Only after you’re comfortable with the D850, would I suggest buying that big lens. @Joanna will probably disagree with me, since that big lens “does everything”. Up to you.
I hope you plan to keep that camera - there are times and places where it would be much more convenient than the D850 kit. But that’s me… Maybe they would take it in trade?
Why on earth look for a big, heavy, expensive, lo-res (21Mpx), press camera that costs more than twice the D850?
The D850 is robust but not to the same extent as the D6.
Maybe that’s your real world but, unless you rent a camera, I don’t know of any UK shops that will lend a camera, especially a secondhand one - it rather spoils the low actuation count every time you press the shutter
Don’t worry, I’ll never sell it, it has its place. Until very recently I was sure I wouldn’t get another camera until the Leica broke but I’m definitely wavering
I see. And sorry, I didn’t know the CL is dead-end, too.
Well, my D850 once slipped out of its backpack around 50 cm to a concrete plate. With attached 150-600. And grip, just to raise the fun. For the concrete plate. Didn’t go too well for it. Also, keep in mind, the mirror is adding mechanical precision parts. Which wear and increase the shutter lag, which add complications for its indirect AF system. I spent a couple of Saturdays to do micro-adjustments for all lenses, and the AF is still partly gambling in special situations. I will not sell it, for some occasions it’s the right tool.
But last year only 8 % of my pictures I made with the D850. The vast majority were shot with L-mount-cameras, such as a Lumix S1R, a S5 and a Sigma fp-L. Especially the S1 series plays in the same size class as the D850. And the S1R has exactly the same MP. It’s slower in some aspects, but I never faced back- or frontfocus with it. Can’t say that for the D850.
I also had the SL2S for testing - no Leica lens, just my Panasonic and Sigmas. I don’t like it’s fixed back display, the tilt of the D850 is better for me and the 2 axis tilt of the S1R the second best, after the fully tilt-swivel display of the S5. But I was very surprised how easy the Leica was to set up and how well thought the basic set up is.
If you’d live closer to Switzerland or me closer to the UK, I’d like to just show you both cameras, compare the shutter sound, the menus, the handling of AF, the speed. The S1R has a couple of features I will never care about (as has the D850, too), but also a few which I constantly use and simply miss on a DSLR. But it’s out of your price limit and I don’t want to talk you into exceeding it.
Best advice might be: Go to a dealer, probably one who rents cameras and find out for yourself what fits in your hands. Problem with Lumix is just, they are not very wide spread. But if I had not so many Nikon mount lenses, I would have never bought into Z-system. And I will never go back in time and buy a DSLR, not matter how good it’s condition is. For you it would be a start into a new system anyway. I think you need to be very sure to embrace the disadvantages of a slapping mirror.
That’s the best advice – the cam has to suit you, if it’s the cam’s size, grip, layout, menu …
May I ask which FF Nikon mount non-telephoto zoom you would recommend? If none, then none, needn’t be Nikkor either
I’m having a look at a D850 next week, thanks both
If you prefer going the DSLR route, rather than mirrorless, the D850 is the best choice. For me there are lots of advantages to mirrorless, but it is not everyone’s cup of tea.
Mark.
for a midrange zoom (Nikon)
for FF (FX) I had the older Nikon 24-70 mm (good, but very heavy),
got an 24-85 mm (sold it),
got an 24-120 mm (not much better than the 24-85mm, but much front heavier, sold it)
got an 24-85 mm again
those are all supported by DxO
Many of the following issues I was already aware of, but not all.
https://www.slrlounge.com/switching-from-dslr-to-mirrorless/
I agree with @Wolfgang - see what fits you best, and vice versa - but consider the drawbacks too.
Since 2013 I replaced a couple of genuine Nikon prime lenses and the 14-24/2.8 (one of the best flare collectors) against their Sigma counterparts. Heavier, optically better by some margins than their Nikon pendants, mechanically good, but not as super robust as some G-lenses with magnesium barrel.
You were asking for a zoom lens. I don’t like them so much in general. The D850, if properly focused, has enough reserve to crop.
Usually I used it with the 35/1.4 art. The newer version might be better but is DG DN, therefore only mirrorless. If I needed a standard zoom I used the 24-105/4 art. Stopped down to f/5.6 rather great. For me the advantage of the Sigmas were the customization via USB-dock. If a Nikon lens suffers of back- or front focus (well, it’s both, body and lens), you only can adjust one distance. The problem is, this need to adjustment can be a different one on various distances. And on various FL (of a zoom). So, you get an idea how long it takes to optimize a lens to a DSLR-camera. Each lens. And after each visit in the service, like after the encounter with the concrete plate. I’m so fed up with this indirect system which was great at its time, but today I want to have my focus where I like it to be and that happens more reliable with mirrorless. Of course, if you take pictures at f/10 by default you might never notice a focus issue, that’s the “realm” of fast lenses.
The 24-85/3.5-4.5 has so much distortion that a lens profile is in dire need. I first had it and was hoping for good results, but imo Nikon threw it on the market to offer a cheap(er) standard zoom, and still making a lot of money with it, even sold as a kit lens. Replaced it bei the 24-105/4 and everything went smoother. I got away with some handheld shots at 1/15 sec @ 105 mm, that good is it’s stabilisation.
I know some people are happy with and use strictly only genuine Nikon lenses. I found I often paid more for less performance. I’m happy with my Sigmas. Or was, as I don’t use them anymore. At least not in Nikon mount (did I mention “heavy”? But forgot to mention “large”? Stupid me). The weight difference between the 85/1.4 in F- to the version in L-mount are 480 grams… and that’s just one lens. On top of it, the mirrorless version is a more recent calculation and a tad sharper.
I am 1m80 tall, also with relatively large hands. I love being able to “hang” the camera off all four fingers when walking along - as opposed to the smaller grips of a lot of cameras, especially the new mirrorless.
Adding the battery grip gives me even more room in landscape orientation and the ability to still hold the camera “side to side” in portrait orientation. Yes, it’s heavier but oh so reassuring that I have more fingers holding it.
C’mon Mike, it’s not as bad as that.
The article mentions issues found with the earliest models of mirrorless cameras when that new technology first hit the market. With the relentless advances in camera technology the situation is quite different now, but the detractors will always ignore it; in their minds mirrorless = bad and they will keep beating the same old drum over and over way past the last call.
IMHO any experienced photographer who picks up a modern mirrorless prosumer-grade (or above) camera will quickly see how responsive the camera is and how good the EVF is. You can read a thousand reviews about anything but there’s no substitute for seeing it for yourself… you quickly realize how much info out there just isn’t right. And not all of them are teeny tiny toy-feeling things. My new Fuji X-T5, for example, is metal with a great solid feel but is smaller and lighter and a lot easier to carry around on a 3 hour outing than the old (sold) Canon R5 beast I had for almost 2 years.
@JoJu touched on the most important (for me) advantage of mirrorless, the focus speed and accuracy. DSLR technology just can’t even come close especially for the transient off-hand or “journalistic” photography that you and I both grew up with.
But let’s not get into the issue of complexity. I sorely miss the old Nikon F days when cameras were simple. Everything out there now is too &#$@*% complex!
Your are referring to an ancient article with regard to mirrorless cameras, which doe not even mention the current happy transition of most serious shooters to mirrorless from DSLR’s when purchasing new gear. It is not like top of the line DSLR’s are not still available and yet these shooters select mirrorless instead. Just look at new camera sales of higher end models and compare.
I am not suggesting that anyone give up their DSLR’s if they meet all their requirements, but a lot of the old arguments against mirrorless are no longer relevant and those bodies have features that DSLRs do not. I was a DSLR shooter for many years and have moved on with no regrets.
Mark
I sort of agree with you - BUT - twice now, I have gone to a camera store and picked up a mirrorless Nikon, and it felt to me like I was watching a TV screen. My impression was that it was awful, and when I stood in front of the first store, and “panned” the camera left to right, I almost felt “seasick” from the way the perspective changed. I’m sure that’s what my eyes see with no camera, or with my DSLR, but the effect is totally different. In my opinion, there is no substitute for viewing the real scene optically, with my eyes.
My Fuji can switch back and forth instantly with a lever on the front of the camera, between optical view and digital view. I like “digital” because it shows me so much more information, but again, it’s like watching a TV (for me). With optical, I see with my own eyes, looking at the real thing, not a digital copy. …which is why I love the D780, and why I prefer to use my M10 in “rangefinder mode” rather than using the Visoflex to look at a tiny tv screen. They all have a viewing screen on the back, but most of the time, for lots of reasons, I prefer the viewfinder.
This is only my personal opinion, but my friend Ray who bought the Nikon Z7 II now wants to get rid of it and go back to DSLR. He has different reasons than mine - he shoots birds, and doesn’t like the way the viewfinder works when taking a stream of exposures. I’ve never seen it, so I can’t say much more.
Years ago, I’d already have bought the Z9. According to what I’ve read, it is an incredible camera. From my point of view, the better DSLR cameras from Nikon (D780, D850) are much better FOR ME.
The focus speed seems “instant” on my D780. Press the back-focus button, and the camera reacts. I don’t know how mirrorless compares, but to me, it’s like comparing $4.98 to $4.95. To me, I consider them both the same, five dollars.
That is a huge part of why I enjoy my Leica M cameras so much!!!
My opinion - people stopped buying new cameras, as the current cameras were already so good. So, along with the magazines and internet, they tell people about this NEW technology, and switch over to it, so lots of people are now buying new cameras to be part of the new technology. Then, in a stroke of (commercial) genius, they change the lens mount, so those people who buy the new cameras will replace all their old lenses with new lenses that fit the new cameras.
A brilliant stroke of marketing genius! Now people are buying new cameras again.
The new cameras can take advantage of the new technology, and do things the older cameras can’t, such as capturing a zillion photos per second - but how many of us will actually do so - and after a day of bird watching, do any of us want to come home with thousands of huge raw images to sort through?
To me, the whole thing is a gimmick, to sell more product.
My opinion isn’t going to count for much, as I’ve been going backwards in what camera I want. My camera batteries typically are less than half used at the end of a typical day. My images are 24 megapixel, which is far more than I need.
The photo of the Empire State Building that @Joanna and Helen both love was taken with a 12 megapixel Canon S120 camera dating back to 2013. Why did I buy it? Simple:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_PowerShot_S120
It was my travel camera back then, and I still have it. It lives in my Mazda.
I can certainly agree that for shooting video, mirrorless cameras can be better than DSLR.
Maybe you’re right, and I am just an old-fashioned guy who wants good gear that is capable, but simple. I do like my new D870 more than my D850, and more than my previous Nikons, but I like my M10 more than any of them, especially so since I retired from shooting for publication. So take everything I wrote up above with a few grains of salt.
Your opinion is flawed probably as a result of your inexperience with mirrorless.
There are very few professional and advanced photographers who have moved on to mirrorless that would consider going back to DSLRs.
For instance, top of the line Sony’s are becoming the go to cameras for many professionals with their lighter and smaller bodies and lenses, incredibly fast and accurate autofocus, the ability to use many lenses from a variety of different manufacturers including those from Canon and Nikon.
Mirrorless cameras have completely silent shooting. Which is great in situations where you can’t use a DSLR because it’s too noisy. Mirroless cameras also have the ability to shoot a very high number of frames per second, have much less camera shake hand held since there is no mirror, and have no need for in camera lens adjustments since there is no separate focusing sensor like a DSLR.,
Mirrorless bodies are every bit as robust as DSLRs. More and more proprietary and third-party lenses are available for mirrorless cameras and most DSLR lenses can be used on them with an adapter.
If you want to review an image you just captured, you can do it immediately without even taking your eye off the EVF viewfinder and take another image immediately with the exact same framing if you wish. Reviewing images in the back LCD screen is always very problematic on any camera due to the size of the image, the distance you’re looking at it from, and the effects of the lighting while you’re looking at it. Looking through in EVF allows you to see the image you took exactly as it looked when you took it. Unlike DSLRs, setting changes are visible in the viewfinder before you take the shot. It is truly what you see is what you get.
And speaking of using the EVF instead of the rear LCD screen to review images, I can also make any changes I want to the camera through the EVF You can access the menus and any other features in your camera without ever taking your eye off the viewfinder.
The final thing I want to mention is focus peeking and the ability to magnify the framing in the EVF which makes manually focusing a lens incredibly quick and accurate.
There are other features and options available in mirrorless cameras that are not available in DSLRs, I just wanted to mention a few.
DSLRs will always have their adherents. The Nikon D850 is an incredible camera, However your suggestion that mirrorless users have been talked into purchasing this new technology as a result of marketing rather than from seeing the obvious benefits for themselves, is really demeaning. I was once a mirrorless camera naysayer and thought they were just gadgets until I actually started to use one. Now I wouldn’t go back for anything. If somebody gave me a brand new Nikon D850 as a gift It would be much more likely that I would sell it or give it away rather then use it.
Mark
I’m sure you are right - VERY limited.
My Fuji X100F has most of those “advantages”, and I enjoy using that camera, but given the choice of the EVF or OVF, I almost always prefer the old OVF.
Everything is a compromise, and my Fuji tries to give me both. If the Fuji were full frame, with interchangeable lenses, that is probably what I would now be shooting.
So, which is more important, the advantages or disadvantages of “mirrorless”? Everyone gets to choose for themselves. My favorite camera, the M10, is mirrorless, and I still have an optical viewfinder and can have an almost silent shutter. I can put an electronic viewfinder in the accessor shoe, and get most of the other benefits, but I guess I’m old fashioned, I want an optical viewfinder. With the Fuji, I get both optical and digital, along with the other benefits.
Yeah, but I wouldn’t say my opinion is “flawed”, just “different” from different priorities.
To be truthful though, if I was still shooting sports, I’d already own a Z9.
I was comparing mirrorless to DSLRs only. Your M10 rangefinder is a different type of camera and is not really germane,
As I’ve said many times I have no intention of trying to convince anyone to move away from a camera with which they’re comfortable. But I wanted to set the record straight that mirrorless cameras are not some kind of marketing gimmick.
Mark
As you might know I just bought a Z6ii. But the sound of the shutter is just the same as a DSLR. There might be a setting in the menu that I didn’t find yet.
George