Off-Topic - advice, experiences and examples, for images that will be processed in PhotoLab

I saw this image this morning, and the clouds, and the lady relaxing, enjoying the view. I took only one photo. When I edited it in PhotoLab, the control line tools adjusted the image to how I remember it, without making it unrealistic.

Since I haven’t yet edited a single image with a control line that was technically correct, I have little hope this one will be - but any changes I make take away from the image.

I won’t trying to get yet another photo of Biscayne Bay, but this was the only direction in which the clouds looked the way I wanted.

I created a VC, but I always came back to this view.

I changed the white balance to 5600.

So, Joanna - is at least an improvement over my past attempts?

DF1_3208 | 2023-06-29.nef (33.5 MB)
DF1_3208 | 2023-06-29.nef.dop (38.4 KB)

I can’t help but make a comment on this picture. To me you have three pictures in one. The lady on the left is way too close to the edge because she is leaning backwards and with the white fencing behind that take your eye straight out of the picture. She is the first picture on its own. The second picture is the two boats, the one in the middle and the one to the right. The problem with that one the boat on the right is far too close to the edge and with the rising ground behind again draws your eye out of the picture. The third picture is the clouds and they are mainly over to the right and what with the boat below your eye is again going out of the picture.

Sorry for being so critical but I felt I just had to say something.

Again, please DO be critical, the more so, the better.

Yesterday morning I walked out my door, to take a photo of the clouds to see if I could use a control line better. I looked through my 24-70, before I zoomed in, and notice the lady, so I zoomed out to capture everything.

When I stare at the photo now, I see all these things trying to drag my eye out of the photo, but my eye goes right to the boat in the center of the image.

I thought my control line improved the clouds, which was the reason for the photo being taken, but I had to tame down my desire to emphasize the clouds, which made it very un-realistic.

Had I not captured this image, I probably would have just walked away. The individual “pictures” didn’t excite me.

Strange, with all the things you noticed, the picture (to me) appears to be stable, focused on the boat in the middle…

One of the reasons that I have been pushing you towards using your reflex cameras is the fact that you have a larger viewfinder which gives you the opportunity to check around the edges of the frame so that you can cut out what you do not want in the image and add in anything you do want in the image.

I suspect the problem you are facing is that when you were doing photography professionaly your main subject had to be in a suitable position for the editor to make use and cut out what he didn’t want not what you didn’t want. It’s a hard habit to get out of and no doubt will take time. It’s a question of just before you press the shutter to take a quick look around the edges and then take the picture.

Don’t worry I still occasionally make the same mistake and get so interested in trying to tell the story of my subject that I occasionally forget to look around the edges myself.

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Unfortunately, no.

The Control Line and Point were not totally unnecessary. In particular, the only parts of the clouds you affected were a few very small highlight areas…

The rest of the clouds are virtually untouched.

Here is my version, without any local adjustments at all…

DF1_3208 | 2023-06-29.nef.dop (55,9 Ko)


Couldn’t agree more. The three subjects are simply too far apart to make one coherent image.

Centred maybe, but definitely not focused. The person on the left and the boat on the right are far more prominent and that is why @Prem commented as he did that they draw the eye away and out of the image.

Interesting. As already noted, the person, i.e. the face (even though it is in profile), on the left is where most people’s eye will be instantly drawn, it was for me. That the person / face appears to have no impact on you suggests your brain doesn’t process things in quite the same way as others. That could explain why you appear to be drawn to things mechanical / structural (RC cars, boats, buildings, cranes, pipes etc.), which most people skim over.

Are you sure? Could Mike not have stood closer the person and taken a view that follows their line of sight? Would that have not put the person in the foreground, the boat that’s currently on the far right in the centre background with the clouds filling the sky? The point of view would also eliminate the distracting white wall.

One thing at a time:

Control Lines - Joanna, I have both my final image and your version on my screens at the same time. I can hardly tell the difference, and given the choice, I slightly prefer my version probably only because it has slightly more contrast. The darker parts of the clouds in my version are slightly darker than what I see in your version.

I am going to keep that smile on my face, because for the first time, my end result is so close to your end result. If someone held them up in front of me, one at a time, I doubt I could tell which was which.

If I was going to mail one version to my friends, I think I would send mine, because I like the clouds more.

I agree with this. mikemyers Forget the camera for a moment, focus on just good fundamentals of compositing an image. Without good fundamentals there is very little you do with an image, short of reworking it or many parts of it in post from scratch.

Then change the tone curve and fine contrast sliders. You are not doing what you think you are doing with the Control Line

I’m sure this is true. Also, the only way I can easily see the full view is to take off my glasses. I always leave a little extra, so if the camera wasn’t perfectly level, I have room to adjust it.

I can try harder to check everything, but when people are involved, things change in a split second.

Question - with so many megapixels, what do I gain by perfectly filling the viewfinder? Unless the camera is on a tripod, I always want some “wiggle room”. Usually if it’s people, my full concentration is on their faces, and I don’t worry about “the edges”.

The camera was focused closer, but my focus/attention was on the full image. I don’t think any of those three separate photos would be useful. I wanted to capture the whole scene, what I saw with my eyes. Part of me is trying, and often failing, to keep the camera level, so I’m looking to see if the horizon is reasonably straight.

I don’t doubt this "draws the eye away, and out of the image, and I can sense this too, but for me, my attention instantly goes back to the middle of the image.

I don’t doubt that - and for me, the lady at the lower left corner was just a “prop”, with the central part of the image drawing my attention. That she is looking at the clouds sends my brain right up to the clouds, in the middle of the image. The lady, and the sailboat at the right, are just “props” surrounding my image. To me.

The last thing you wrote is certainly right. I see/notice things that others are probably oblivious to. They intrigue me, and I try to find ways of capturing them in photos.

Not possible - before I took the photo, she was looking towards the left, and a split second after I took the photo her head moved back there. That she turned her head and looked “into” my photo was my clue to instantly capture that moment.

My goal for taking the photo at all, was to capture the clouds, so I could try once again to use a control line, and maybe get it better this time. My brain was focused on the clouds, and when the lady looked up at them, that (to me) was what I wanted.

Quite likely, true, but I was only taking a photo of the clouds, and everything else was just “framing the clouds”. I wasn’t even taking it because I liked the view, I thought (incorrectly, it turns out) this could be another control-line image, that I (hopefully) would edit properly.

I agree completely, but that’s not what I was trying to do. The only “fundamentals” I cared about at that moment were capturing an image that I’ve been struggling to do, due to my lack of understanding about control lines.

From what Joanna wrote, this image failed because so little of the clouds was “white” enough to use the control line. I saw the same image Joanna posted, showing the mask. She explained the “problem”, but I did the best I could despite the problem.

Using a control line to improve the clouds is more complicated than I expected.

Regarding composition, I fully agree with what you wrote, but for this image, the composition wasn’t what I was after. …and I couldn’t move to the left, because of grass and posts and signs that would be in the way.

I’m puzzled as to why nobody else is posting images in which control lines were an important part of the editing.

Its just a tool. Its not complicated. And it should not be a goal onto itself. Composing a shot and using control lines to improve the tonality of the image is not mutually exclusive.

Ok, now I am the one that is confused. I am not sure what you mean by that. Its sound confusing.

It shouldn’t be. I tried it on your photo, both on the water and clouds and its super easy. Drag a line, point the color picker where you want, click “m” to preview the mask and adjust accordingly… It should not be rocket science.

Like I mentioned earlier, why not compose a shot with clouds, instead of just pointing and shooing at clouds?

I tried to do something with the photo you posted, although its difficult to fix composition and one can go only so far, but when it comes to control lines, I used one for water and one for clouds, no problem. I also tried to flip the image, crop and even tried to apply the Miniature Effect tool to simulate a tiny world like that produced by tilt-shift lens in desporate attempt to draw attention to the boats.

Anyway, it should not be difficult to use these tools. But without good composition and lighting one can do only so much.

Agreed.

Maybe I’m just “slow”. Who knows.

I think you missed the dozen or so posts earlier, as I was struggling to learn this tool, which may not be complicated for you, but certainly has been for me.

I’m trying to say that I want to learn how to use all these tools, and to do so properly.

I’m trying to accomplish what both Joanna and PhotoJoseph have been showing, how to improve a photo, which should be like the original, but better. I used to over-do things, and my results didn’t look “real”. Just my personal goal, different people may feel otherwise. It’s easy to create a “fake” photo, but more difficult to make an improved version of the original, that still looks “real”. Again, for me. That’s why I said I was smiling at my last attempt, as it was very close to what Joanna did.
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I went for a short walk to go to FedEx, then my bagel bakery. Along the way it started to rain, so I ducked into a dry place to stand. Since I had my Df with me, I decided to try to capture an image of what I saw. Lots of images, most of which I didn’t like. This is the only one that “worked” for me. The focus was on the bicycle in the foreground. The cars have their lights on, as that’s the law in Florida - if it’s raining, turn on your lights. Not trying to learn anything, just trying to get a composition I liked, and to show the rainy world surrounding me…

DF1_3233 | 2023-06-30.nef (33.9 MB)
DF1_3233 | 2023-06-30.nef.dop (14.4 KB)

I am not sure what you find so complicated about these tools. Maybe I did miss some previous posts. Either way, I assure you the way these tools are used is pretty straightforward. What you do with them is more creative, personal stuff.

This is just an illustration of a creative way to use the existing tools in DXO by cloning a duck to improve composition. If I was doing this for real, though, and not to illustrate a point I would use more suitable tools in Photoshop for this, but I hope it still gets the point across.

Most of the tools in DXO PL are pretty straight forward and compare to other software like Photoshop , (possibly mitigated with few versions of PS that offers lot of AI assisted tools) they really should not be a challenge but a liberating set of tools to are creative and stress free when playing around with tone and color.

Well, if the focus should be on the bicycle in the foreground the only thing you can do in post is to select it and brighten it up a bit, and fortunately there are some reds in the inner side of the tires. If you also select and brighten up the tail lights of that parked car, you can build few points of interest that lead from the bike (noticed the red) to the parked car (notice the red) to the cars on the road. Using those elements you can build a rudimentary composition with depth (foreground, middle ground, background). I gave it a quick go. But if you wanted to practice selection tools in PhotoLab , this is a fun example.

Poor choice of wording on my part. The camera focus was set for the bicycle.

It was a dull, dreary, rainy morning. That’s what I want the picture to show. All that bright red color might appeal to others, but I would prefer my picture to represent what I saw, standing there. As to cloning ducks, I don’t do stuff like that. In the unlikely chance I were to enter an image into a competition, doing things like that would get me disqualified.

I don’t know what to say, really. Seems like you want something, but you are not sure what or how to communicate it, and you also seem to have a hard time thinking in principles or conceptualize. one of the key characteristic need to be able to learn with understanding. I show you cloning of ducks, not because I want to show you cloning of ducks, but to show you creative way to use tools which you claim you are interested in learn. Its about conceptual thinking about these things. Something you seem to struggle more than I though possible.

Techniques, principles, and concepts are terms commonly used in various fields to describe different aspects of knowledge and understanding. Here’s an explanation of each term:

  1. Techniques: Techniques refer to specific methods, procedures, or skills employed to accomplish a particular task or goal. They are practical in nature and often involve step-by-step instructions or guidelines that can be learned and applied. Techniques are usually specific to a particular domain or discipline and are meant to provide a systematic approach to solving problems or achieving desired outcomes.

For example, in cooking, techniques can include chopping, sautéing, grilling, or baking. In programming, techniques can involve algorithms, data structures, debugging, or code optimization.

  1. Principles: Principles are fundamental laws, guidelines, or fundamental truths that govern a particular domain or discipline. They serve as the foundation for understanding and decision-making within that field. Principles are based on empirical evidence, observations, or established theories and provide a framework for thinking and acting in a certain way.

In various fields, principles can guide ethical behavior, design principles, management principles, scientific principles, or principles of physics. They are often broad and can be applied in different contexts, helping to guide actions and shape strategies.

  1. Concepts: Concepts are abstract ideas or mental constructs that represent categories, properties, relationships, or phenomena. They are used to organize and understand information, allowing us to make sense of the world around us. Concepts are often broader than techniques and principles and can encompass a range of related ideas and theories.

For instance, in psychology, concepts can include cognition, perception, learning, memory, or personality. In economics, concepts can involve supply and demand, inflation, market equilibrium, or opportunity cost.

Now, let’s discuss conceptual thinking:

Conceptual thinking refers to the ability to think in terms of abstract ideas, principles, and concepts rather than focusing solely on specific details or concrete examples. It involves understanding the underlying principles and relationships that govern a particular domain and employing critical thinking to analyze complex problems or situations.

Conceptual thinking allows individuals to make connections between different concepts, identify patterns, and synthesize information to form new insights or ideas. It involves looking beyond surface-level details and considering the bigger picture, enabling individuals to see the interrelationships and implications of various elements.

Conceptual thinking is valuable in fields that require problem-solving, innovation, strategic planning, decision-making, and creativity. It helps individuals develop a deeper understanding of complex systems, identify underlying causes, and propose novel solutions.

"A rule says, “You must do it this way.” A principle says, “This works … and has worked through all remembered time.” Insecure and inexperienced ones obey rules. Rebellious and unschooled ones break rules. And artists master the principles.”

― Robert McKee, Story: Style, Structure, Substance, and the Principles of Screenwriting

Much like Tango: Beginners want to dance like intermediates; intermediates want to dance like advanced dancers; advanced dancers want to dance like the greats; but the greats always go back to basics.

That’s all I have to say.

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I realize my D780 is the most advanced Nikon I own, but for anyone with 8 minutes to spare, this video explains why I enjoy the Df so much.
Nikon Df Review 3of3: Recommended Settings and Tips - YouTube

The customizing shown in the video was installed in my D750, and is being configured in my D780. The changes make it easier to use the camera the way I want.

Thanks to the video, my Df today is considerably better than it was the day before. For better or worse, my eyepiece on the Df is a “magnifying” eyepiece, which I expect to return to the way it comes standard. It makes it more difficult to see the edges of the in-camera image.

Joanna - there are several things in the video that you may enjoy, unless you’ve already done so. In image review mode, pressing the button in the center of the “joystick” instantly shows the image at 100% size, centered around where you focused.

I think I’ve mostly retired my D3 for now, and my main camera is the D780, but for walking around, with no project/subject in mind, the Df is the smallest and lightest camera I’ve got.