Off-Topic - advice, experiences and examples, for images that will be processed in PhotoLab

[mikemyers]

I would like to do things your way. Let me start with the first image you posted:

@Joanna

You are duplicating the same functionality by adjusting the Tone Curve and Selective Tonality and Contrast. A well manipulated Tone Curve does fairly much the same as Selective Tonality and Contrast combined.

Are you suggesting I start with the tone curve, and use it for all these adjustments? From what you wrote, doing both may be duplicating what I’m trying to do. I didn’t realize that before. Before I continue editing, is what I just wrote correct, should I first start by adjusting he individual settings in the lower part of your image, for “highlights”, “shadows” and “contrast”.

Since you usually seem to edit the tone curve, that sounds reasonable to me - and doing both is likely to lead to a mistake, doing the same thing twice.

Based on what you wrote, if I go to the tone curve and make a huge change, those other settings remain as-is. It seems to me that the two should work together, and anything I change in either of them should change what I see in the other.

If I understand you correctly, and those two areas are “connected”, when I change the highlights, doing so in the tone curve, should be reflected in the setting for “highlights” under “Selective Tone”.

Regardless of this, I think I should probably adjust one of them, and ignore the other, or I’ll be “duplicating the functionality”.

Also, maybe I’m wrong about this, but when I open an image in PhotoLab, I look at all the adjustments in the window at the right, and starting at the top, I work my way down through all of them, usually in the order in which they show up on my screen.

Another option would be to look at the five adjustments listed under “Search For Corrections” at the top, and click them, one by one, making the appropriate changes for each one separately. I think I did that many years ago.

[stuck (Canon, PL7 on Win 10 + GTX 1050ti)]

@mikemyers

I would like to do things your way

I’m probably misunderstanding you but it seems that you are trying to devise a recipe that you can follow by rote for any image. Except, one size will never fit all.

My approach to image editing is to look at what I’ve captured and then decide on what aspects of it need work. For example, is it too contrasty / lacking contrast?, do the shadows need opening up?, are the highlights to bright / dark?, etc. Once I’ve identified an aspect that needs work then I choose a suitable tool for that job. Those with sliders are the easiest to work with and have a shallow learning curve, while the tone curve is probably the hardest as it has a steep learning curve. The latter though is very powerful, see Joanna’s comment:

@Joanna

A well manipulated Tone Curve does fairly much the same as Selective Tonality and Contrast combined.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

You haven’t touched the selectivity sliders…

… so you haven’t separated out the sky from the cityscape and everything within the light area will be affected.

Adjusting the selectivity sliders gives you much more control over which parts of the image are selected (masked)…

Now, because you can add more Control Lines and Control Points to the same mask, you can end up with more of the sky selected…

Now, at the moment, the cityscape is included in the mask, but this can be removed by adding negative Control Points to the same mask…

The key is to show the masks and make everything you want to change white and everything you want to ignore black (or at least dark grey)

Sorry for copying so much, but this is where I am stuck. As the image below shows, I have created the control line, and the next thing I wanted to do was to de-select the building at the right, bottom. I think you want me to create a control point to eliminate that, and I tried to “paint” out an area with auto mask, but nothing I have tried has worked.

Here’s what I’m up to…

Is there a trick I’m missing about how to add a negative control point to the mask I have just made, using the control line??

[mikemyers]

@stuck

I’m probably misunderstanding you but it seems that you are trying to devise a recipe that you can follow by rote for any image. Except, one size will never fit all.

Once I understand this better, I will do it as you suggest. Right now I’m just trying to do it to one image. Yes, I like having a routine of what to do, in what order, but only if it is necessary. Major adjustments first, minor adjustments last.

First step for me is to get rid of any mistakes, like if the image isn’t level. Second step is usually to crop the image to show what I want to include. Then I start working on the tone controls, contrast, and so on. When that is done, I get into what I will call “fine tuning”, with control lines, control points, and so on.

A dictionary isn’t much good until you understand what the words mean, to the point that I know what I want to do, even if, as now, I realize I don’t know how to do it. After four hours, I decided to move on to something else for a while, and start up again later.

I used to think I knew what I needed to get what I wanted, which is what I already did with this image, but I can now appreciate how much better it can be. That’s all I’m trying to learn now.

[mikemyers]

@stuck

My approach to image editing is to look at what I’ve captured and then decide on what aspects of it need work.

We are thinking differently here. I already know what I “want”, which is why and how I captured the image. I just need to manipulate what the camera captured, so it matches what I already have in my mind. To be honest though, I often change my mind as I’m doing the editing.

[mikemyers]

Oops, while searching, I found a much better thread in which to ask this question:

How do I protect or erase an area when using a control line? - #19 by mikemyers

Please respond there, not here, so it’s all in one place.

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

Sorry for copying so much, but this is where I am stuck. As the image below shows, I have created the control line, and the next thing I wanted to do was to de-select the building at the right, bottom. I think you want me to create a control point to eliminate that, and I tried to “paint” out an area with auto mask, but nothing I have tried has worked.

You need to create negative control points or negative control lines to eliminate an unintended edit to a specific area of your image. I’m on a Windows machine. Perhaps a Mac user will explain when and how to apply negative control points or control lines on that platform.

Mark

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

@mikemyers

Is there a trick I’m missing about how to add a negative control point to the mask I have just made, using the control line??

When you are still in the “Control Line mode” (= CL still active), add a new tool (= as if you want to leave that “CL mode”), press + hold the ALT key (on PC, don’t know the equivalent on Mac) and choose / click the Control Point tool, to provide / add the desired negative CP to exclude something from the existing CL selection. → With this building and it’s brighter & darker tones you might need more than one negative CP.

Yes, it’s always simple when you know and have experimented to get familiar with.

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→ Don’t forget to analyze the photo in question before you throw all kind of tools on it, that might ‘technically’ work. It helps, to get the picture you want to convey while staying ‘productive’. ←

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[mikemyers]

@Wolfgang

Don’t forget to analyze the photo in question before you throw all kind of tools on it, that might ‘technically’ work. It helps, to get the picture you want to convey while staying ‘productive’. ←

I haven’t done very much to the image yet, just some basic stuff, which got me to what I wanted to learn, doing the control line as @Joanna suggested.

This is what I see on my screen now:

I can post the current .dop of you want to see how little I’ve done.

I suspect this is what I need to do:

@mwsilvers

You need to create negative control points or negative control lines to eliminate an unintended edit to a specific area of your image. I’m on a Windows machine. Perhaps a Mac user will explain when and how to apply negative control points or control lines on that platform.

I don’t know what to click on next, to achieve that. None of the things I’ve already tried seemed to work. Since there is a rectangular area I want to “mask”, I thought masking would be the appropriate way to do that. Using control points would be difficult, to cover the rectangular area, and adding a vertical control line going to the right should allow me to do that, but it needs to be done to my current control line, not by creating a new control line, right?

[mikemyers]

Well, I figured out how to mask the building, but it’s not part of the control line, so it’s not going to do what I want…

At least I’m learning how to zoom the image, and move around in the zoomed image.
But now that I’ve done this mask, my control line seems to have vanished.

[mikemyers]

Time to stop for tonight. Both masks are “done”, but they need to be combined into one mask, which is what I can’t figure out how to do.

Time to take a break. I am learning, but not what I’m trying to do, as in lighten up the building at the right. If I do that, my control line correction vanishes.

[mikemyers]

@Wolfgang

When you are still in the “Control Line mode” (= CL still active), add a new tool (= as if you want to leave that “CL mode”), press + hold the ALT key (on PC, don’t know the equivalent on Mac) and choose / click the Control Point tool, to provide / add the desired negative CP to exclude something from the existing CL selection. → With this building and it’s brighter & darker tones you might need more than one negative CP.

I suspect this is the missing link, to allow me to do what I’m trying to do, but on macOS.
Thanks - I’ve tried searching, but keep finding other stuff. Time to stop for tonight.

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

Time to stop for tonight. Both masks are “done”, but they need to be combined into one mask, which is what I can’t figure out how to do.

You can’t combine a control line and an auto mask into one mask.

Mark

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

You can’t combine a control line and an auto mask into one mask.

I accept that now, it all needs to be done in one “control line application”, but what can I do in my example to prevent the building at the right from being darkened by my control line? When I try with a control point, I see the “minus” sign, but it won’t let me. click on the image.

Are you aware of any training videos that show this? I guess that’s my next attempt for tomorrow, watching videos on control lines, and hope to find what I’m looking for.

Thanks, and good night!

[mikemyers]

I really need to turn off my computer and go to sleep. But after watching a few videos, I was able to create this image with my original control line to darken the sky, and adding another. control line that I expected to lighten something at the right side of the image, which did not happen. It was just a test. So I guess I need to use control points to accomplish that, and not a second control line. Will try this tomorrow.

I suspect that both control lines are doing the same thing, “darkening” the image, even though the vertical one has a “-” sign which I expected to be a negative control.

It’s all good, I guess. You can all have a good laugh at my expense.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

Mike, did you even look at the DOP that I sent you?

In it. was VC2, with two masks -

• one with a Control Line and negative Control Points

  

  This is to adjust the sky without adjusting the cityscape or the building on the right

• one with a Graduated Filter and a brush combined.

  

  This is to lighten the water in the foreground and the building on the right

Certain mask types can be combined on the same mask. You need to try them out and, as @Wolfgang mentions, to obtain a negative mask, simply hold down the Option key whilst applying the tool.

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However, in the light of your recent screenshots, I cannot emphasise to much how important it is to build your masks with the “Show Masks” checked. Only after you have masked the appropriate area should you then hide the masks and make adjustments on the masked area.

With Control Lines and Control Points, it is a two stage process Don’t ever attempt to create such masks without being able to see the masks.

[herman (Leica M9 | iPhone 15 Pro | iMac M1 | PL6, FP, VP)]

@mikemyers

…what can I do in my example to prevent the building at the right from being darkened by my control line? When I try with a control point, I see the “minus” sign, but it won’t let me. click on the image.

Are you using the “Protect an area” option of the Control Line?

[stuck (Canon, PL7 on Win 10 + GTX 1050ti)]

@mikemyers

We are thinking differently here. I already know what I “want”, which is why and how I captured the image. I just need to manipulate what the camera captured, so it matches what I already have in my mind. To be honest though, I often change my mind as I’m doing the editing.

No, we are thinking alike. We are both talking about manipulating the RAW data that came out of the camera in order to realise the image we ‘saw’ when we pressed the shutter and we both realise that the editing process may lead us to something different to our original vision.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Mike, did you even look at the DOP that I sent you?

In it. was VC2, with two masks -

Not yet. I’m stuck on learning how to add an additional correction to my control line correction. I suspect your .dop will show me what to do, but not how to do it, but in case I’m wrong, I will download your .dop file and create a new VC to use it with.

@Joanna

Certain mask types can be combined on the same mask. You need to try them out and, as @Wolfgang mentions, to obtain a negative mask, simply hold down the Option key whilst applying the tool.

Aha!! Maybe holding down the Option key is what I’m missing. @Wolfgang showed me how it’s done in Windows, but didn’t know how to do it in macOS. I suspect this is just what I need to continue. …and yes, I am constantly turning on/off the “Show Masks” to see what I’m doing, or in this case, failing to do.

@Joanna

one with a Graduated Filter and a brush combined.

I’m trying to add a mask to my control line, using the control line as you showed me, and masking off the building. I’m not sure yet what I will or won’t do with the water - that comes later, as I see things (or fail to).

@herman

Are you using the “Protect an area” option of the Control Line?

Not yet - that is what I am trying to do. I don’t remember seeing those words on my screen, “Protect an Area”. Maybe I just didn’t see them. That certainly IS what I am attempting to do. Thank you - one more piece of my puzzle…

@stuck

No, we are thinking alike. We are both talking about manipulating the RAW data that came out of the camera in order to realise the image we ‘saw’ when we pressed the shutter and we both realise that the editing process may lead us to something different to our original vision.

The first part of what you wrote is what I am thinking. I accept the second part of what you wrote, but at least for now, that is not what I want to achieve… although I might change my mind, as I often do.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Mike, did you even look at the DOP that I sent you?

No, I was struggling to do what you suggested is necessary, but I wasn’t able to add additional corrections to the control line.

I’ve just downloaded your .dop and I can now see what you did:

I can see all your control points, including the ones that protect the building, but there must be a trick to allow you to accomplish this - when I tried, I got an icon showing me it was not allowed - but maybe what has been causing me all the grief was my not holding down the OPTION key.

What do I click on, to bring up the “help window” showing tips on what I can do?
Where does the display say anything about using the OPTION key?

I feel very retarded right now, but I accept that ignorant would be a more appropriate word.