Florida Everglades visit with a Nikon D2h

[mikemyers]

I’ve got some more free time, and while reviewing my old images, I found the photos on a trip my brother and his family made to the Florida Everglades. Gosh, almost 20 years ago! I had my “best”, newly purchased Nikon with me, a “D2h” which was sold as a sports camera, with 4.3 megapixels. Really. It was released in July, 2003. I called B&H photo and ordered one from the first batch of 10 cameras they were to receive.

Big mistake. This camera died, and was replaced by Nikon three or four times, I’ve lost track. Michael Ansett, the head of Nikon Service at that time, asked how he could make things right for me - and I asked him to select a Nikon D2x that was already in use at Nikon, with the hope that it would work properly. Well, it didn’t die, as the others had, but it over heated and used up battery power. So, I either removed the battery between uses, or made sure the camera was “off”. That was my “compromise” at the time. Maybe I was pretty dumb about all of this.

Anyway, the camera did fine for my racing photos, and if the above image is considered acceptable, that’s how well I could use it. Of course, back then I couldn’t spell the word “raw” so it was just like in all my previous cameras, “jpg”. The lens was fine - an old style Nikon 80-200 that weighed almost as much as I weighed, or so it felt. Geesh… But I thought it was sharp, despite the minimal megapixels - which was very much NOT considered minimal in those days.

I also learned that if I wanted sharper photos, I had to get closer!

Earlier in the day, no editing, no nothing. Just export from PhotoLab.

…and back then, around 20 years ago, I didn’t have anything even close to PhotoLab!!! I think I was using a copy of Lightroom that someone gave me.

Enough with my old photos - need to go out and do something new tomorrow.

[mikemyers]

I was asked to process one of my images in DarkTable, to compare with what I do using PhotoLab 6. All the photos from this trip to the Everglades were shot with my very old Nikon D2h, but PhotoLab refused to open half of them:

I understand this, but why did the first half of my images open fine, while the second half displayed this message? I have no clue.

Anyway, here is one of the images that I processed in DarkTable:

I suspect that DarkTable lacks all the tools that PhotoLab provides, but other than for my ignorance in knowing how to use DarkTable, I have no complaints.

(And it really bothers me that I can’t open images from unsupported cameras, including my Leica M8.2, unless I edit the EXIF data and replace the camera name with a supported camera name. Why won’t PhotoLab do the best it can, and open the image anyway??? I want to get back to doing infrared photography in the near future, and the only camera I have that can do this is my old Leica, an then I either need to “cheat”, like before, or use DarkTable. DxO should issue a warning message about an un-supported camera, but open the image anyway, which I know it can if I “cheat”.)

[Eigil_Skovgaard (Eigil Skovgaard Hansen)]

@mikemyers

I suspect that DarkTable lacks all the tools that PhotoLab provides

With such an assumption you are asking for troubles again my friend.

Tell me which adjustments (well known functionality) you have at hand in PhotoLab but are missing in Darktable, then I’ll try to suggest the equivalent tool in DT.

I like the images, not least the woodpecker. Are they raw files?

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

Doesn’t Darktable have their own forums where you could take this discussion ?

[mikemyers]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

Tell me which adjustments (well known functionality) you have at hand in PhotoLab but are missing in Darktable, then I’ll try to suggest the equivalent tool in DT.

Does DarkTable have “Control Lines”, perhaps with a different name?

@Eigil_Skovgaard

I like the images, not least the woodpecker. Are they raw files?

Sorry, but back then I didn’t realize why I should switch from ‘jpg’ to ‘raw’.

Considering the tiny size of the files from the D2h (sports camera), I wish I had done so anyway - but by the time I was using my D2x (general purpose) camera, I started to learn. When I got my D3, I got to where I used ‘raw’ for any serious images.

@Joanna

Doesn’t Darktable have their own forums where you could take this discussion ?

Yes, but my favorite editor is still PhotoLab. Unfortunately, some of my photos can’t be opened in PhotoLab (unless I rename the camera in the EXIF data).

For my purposes, I’m not sure it matters which program I use, but I think DxO is still at the top of my list most of the time.

The main thing of course is the technician doing the editing, more important than any software choice.

Oh, and considering the camera, I’m amazed the Woodpecker image came out as well as it did. I made SO many mistakes back then. I guess I still do, and will never run out of opportunities to make new mistakes. I don’t think you ever make “mistakes” other than doing so on purpose.

[herman (Leica M9 | iPhone 15 Pro | iMac M1 | PL6, FP, VP | Photo Supreme)]

@mikemyers

@Joanna

Doesn’t Darktable have their own forums where you could take this discussion ?

Yes, but […]

Where I live we have a saying that "Yes, but " usually means “No”…

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

@Joanna

Doesn’t Darktable have their own forums where you could take this discussion ?

Yes, but my favorite editor is still PhotoLab. Unfortunately, some of my photos can’t be opened in PhotoLab (unless I rename the camera in the EXIF data).

The fact that you can’t open some of your photographs in PhotoLab is irrelevant to @Joanna’s comment.

A few offhanded comments here and there comparing Darktable to PhotoLab is not the issue, but any detailed discussions on how to get the best from Darktable’s toolset on this software specific vendor site would likely put you on a slippery slope.

Remember, this is not a general photography forum and was created by DxO for the sole purpose of supporting their software offerings.

Mark

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

A few offhanded comments here and there comparing Darktable to PhotoLab is not the issue, but any detailed discussions on how to get the best from Darktable’s toolset on this software specific vendor site would likely put you on a slippery slope.

Well, yeah, but that’s putting the horse behind the cart. I’m not asking for any help in this forum (why would I?) but am pointing out something that PhotoLab CAN do, which is not available in DarkTable.

@mwsilvers

The fact that you can’t open some of your photographs in PhotoLab is irrelevant to @Joanna’s comment.

Agreed, but it is definitely relevant to this topic, as all the Everglades photos were taken with my old Nikon D2h camera, and while the first half of my photos open fine, the rest of them generate the above error message. Seems to me either all of them should open, or none of them should open.

…and it’s no big deal, as I didn’t take that many photos with my D2h, and all of them were processed in LightRoom, which included all the images I was then submitting to various magazines.

@mwsilvers

Remember, this is not a general photography forum and was created by DxO for the sole purpose of supporting their software offerings.

I’m certainly aware of that, but someone asked me to post one of those photos that was processed in DarkTable, so I picked an image to post here. Unless DxO goes subscription only, I’ll continue to use it, and my copy of PL6 should last me “forever”, as long as I’m around.

I’m much more interested in photos that I take now, than the ones I took 20 years ago, and I may very well start visiting the Everglades on my own.

Thanks for bringing up all those points/issues. No argument from me, as I agree with you.

[mikemyers]

@herman

Where I live we have a saying that "Yes, but " usually means “No”…

DarkTable does not have forums like these.
DarkTable users have several forums.
There is no “DarkTable Company”, just a lot of dedicated users.
When/if I get stuck on something, I post in those forums.

This post was intended to be about:
PhotoLab + Nikon D2h + Florida Everglades.

@herman - curious is your Leica M9 fully supported by PhotoLab? I don’t see how they could be, but are your lenses supported?

[herman (Leica M9 | iPhone 15 Pro | iMac M1 | PL6, FP, VP | Photo Supreme)]

@mikemyers

@herman - curious is your Leica M9 fully supported by PhotoLab? I don’t see how they could be, but are your lenses supported?

Nope, my lenses are not supported by DxO.

[Eigil_Skovgaard (Eigil Skovgaard Hansen)]

@mikemyers

Does DarkTable have “Control Lines”, perhaps with a different name?

Not directly. Each tool in Darktable has a masking section, and if you want to limit the effect of a tool setting to be e.g. a subset of a gradient filter, you can do that by adding a drawn mask and define the intersection. Once you have created the combination it will be saved in the Mask manager and can be re-used with other tools.

[Eigil_Skovgaard (Eigil Skovgaard Hansen)]

@Joanna

Doesn’t Darktable have their own forums where you could take this discussion ?

Yes, pixls dot us is the forum for Darktable. But a discussion here of Darktable as a free alternative to PhotoLab seems fair to me. Some users could be less convinced about the features of PhotoLab and have an honest interest in this free alternative.

I am a convinced user of DxO PureRaw 3-4, so I am not an intruder or sales person, just interested in exploring the differences between the two raw editors. I could have missed some hidden jewels in PhotoLab.

If Mike is interested in finding the common nominator between the two editors, why not here. This is the place where he’s regularly beaten up by friends ;O)

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

But a discussion here of Darktable as a free alternative to PhotoLab seems fair to me

So, you think it is fair to impose on DxO’s good grace by promoting a rival free product, which haas its own support network, as opposed to the products that they have spent a lot of time and money developing and abuse the servers that they provide and pay for?

@Eigil_Skovgaard

If Mike is interested in finding the common nominator between the two editors, why not here. This is the place where he’s regularly beaten up by friends ;O)

Tell me, should we also allow discussions about Photoshop and Affinity Photo?

Mike’s motivation behind this “sharing” forum was to discuss images produced using PhotoLab, not any and every software out there.

@mikemyers

DarkTable does not have forums like these.
DarkTable users have several forums.
There is no “DarkTable Company”, just a lot of dedicated users.
When/if I get stuck on something, I post in those forums.

In that case, please use their electricity bill and their “dedicated users” on their servers to discuss their products.

@mwsilvers

Remember, this is not a general photography forum and was created by DxO for the sole purpose of supporting their software offerings.

@mikemyers, please take note and stop abusing DxO’s good grace.

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

Yes, pixls dot us is the forum for Darktable. But a discussion here of Darktable as a free alternative to PhotoLab seems fair to me. Some users could be less convinced about the features of PhotoLab and have an honest interest in this free alternative.

This is a DxO site created by them to specifically support the users of products they created and market. I certainly won’t tell you or anyone what they can and can’t post here, but if I owned DxO I would consider deleting individual posts or whole threads intended to steer current users away to a competing product. This is a private forum owned by DxO and as such no assumptions should be made regarding what is and what is not acceptable to post here.

Mark

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Mike, please take note and stop abusing DxO’s good grace.

We all do that - as in discussing Topaz.

If someone wanted to know how to process images from unsupported cameras, I could either tell them how to “cheat” and fake the EXIF data - or simply tell them to use DarkTable.

To me, so far, having already bought and/or downloaded just about every editor available, I’m left with only two choices, PhotoLab or DarkTable.

The main point of the DxO forums is to help people using DxO products, but what are you going to suggest when someone asks how to remove an auto that is inconveniently parked in an image. I would send them to PhotoShop, which will replace the car image with something plausible, based on what is around the car.

I couldn’t even open my image of the woodpecker using PhotoLab. I’m not upset, as I didn’t expect PhotoLab to open any images from a Nikon D2h. But it opened half the images just fine.

Here’s the original Woodpecker image:

It wouldn’t open in PL6, with the message that the camera, D2h, was unsupported, but half the photos in that folder opened just fine. All were taken with the D2h.

No problem - I was too stubborn to give up, and didn’t feel like messing around with the EXIF data, so it was a good excuse to go back to DarkTable.

@Joanna

So, you think it is fair to impose on DxO’s good grace by promoting a rival free product, which haas its own support network, as opposed to the products that they have spent a lot of time and money developing and abuse the servers that they provide and pay for?

Yes, and no. For DxO to remain at the top of the totem pole, they (or their forum) ought to be as helpful as possible to all photographers, and the more they help DarkTable users, those same users will likely eventually come around to DxO because of all the advantages DxO software provides. What would you suggest we tell the owner of a Leica M8.2 or Nikon D2h, or all the other un-supported cameras, when they try to open their images in a test download of PhotoLab, but can’t open the images?

(I would suggest that one of the best advantages of DxO is also a disadvantage - because DxO knows all the lenses and cameras it does, it can correct for potential issues with that gear. Wonderful. But that also means someone who owns an un-supported camera, even if they are shooting just jpg images, is stuck. I doubt if anyone is going to be as silly/stubborn as me, and tweak the EXIF data to fool DxO into opening the image anyway. )

@Joanna

Mike’s motivation behind this “sharing” forum was to discuss images produced using PhotoLab, not any and every software out there.

True, but it wouldn’t bother me if someone posted an image they created in different software, even if the image came from a film camera.

Me? I’m thrilled that so many new people are posting their images here, and joining the discussions. From what I’ve heard, DxO is very pleased with how the new forums are going.

[Eigil_Skovgaard (Eigil Skovgaard Hansen)]

@Joanna

So, you think it is fair…

Should it be free to discuss other products in the DxO forum?
Absolutely (even Photoshop or Affinity Photo, should a member find it interesting).

But, apparently, a simple interest among members of this forum in comparing different raw editors is in conflict with your view, and the process must be attacked with a special choise of words.

[mrcrustacean (Patrick Cray (Nikon & Win11))]

@mikemyers The DxO Supported Cameras & Lenses tool: indicates that the Nikon D2H is supported from PL1, but curiously not NEF files produced by the camera. Mike, I would expect all your files to open in PhotoLab, as you stated you only took jpeg with your D2H?

Can you open all the D2H files in Lightroom as well as DarkTable? If the issue is definitely confined to PhotoLab, perhaps you need to raise a support ticket with DxO?

[mikemyers]

Well, I’m getting better at doing what I usually do in PhotoLab. I’ll never make this into a large print, not enough pixels left, but I love the image, and I love the way it came out with minimal processing.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

Should it be free to discuss other products in the DxO forum?
Absolutely (even Photoshop or Affinity Photo, should a member find it interesting).

My opinion - sure! There is nothing I did in this image that I couldn’t have done just as well, maybe better, with PhotoLab, other than the minor technical issue that PhotoLab refuses to open this image.

I need to find a more challenging image, to see if I know what I’m doing.

[mikemyers]

Just like with PhotoLab, the more I mess around with things, the more I feel like I have at least some control, but when I think I click on something obvious, strange things happen rather than what I expect - but I’m getting better.

PhotoLab is more likely to do something more or less like what I want. DarkTable now tells me this image is from 2005, not 2006.

Time to put everything away, and start dinner.

Strange things happening - the more I use this software, the faster my clocks run.

Oh, and if this were PhotoLab, I would change that ugly sky to a nice blue color - which I’m not supposed to even think of doing.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mrcrustacean

Can you open all the D2H files in Lightroom as well as DarkTable? If the issue is definitely confined to PhotoLab, perhaps you need to raise a support ticket with DxO?

The D2H has a totally non-standard and unique JFET-LBCAST sensor, so I can’t see DxO ever supporting it for RAW files.

Of course, PhotoLab will open JPEG files from it but not RAW, which is why Mike can only open some files and not others…

The easiest way to recover those images recorded as RAW would be to use something like ExifTool to extract the embedded JPEG. Then you can junk the RAW.