Using PhotoLab 4 to process sunset photos

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@mikemyers

wondering what the key numbers I need to find from my camera information, to understand how well it will, or won’t, deal with “dynamic range” Megapixels is something totally different, so that’s separate.

Lets make some definitions.
1 megapixels=> resolution => so important for crop % the more pixels the further you can crop in to a image without getting pixels duplicated in a 1080p screen if filled for full screen.
2 dynamic range => basicly amount of stops between 0 exposure and max exposure.
Usable dynamic range is noise threshold on the dark side and near blown white on the light side.
3 iso and DR, => some sensors are ISO invariant. Not completely but in a large scale if the ISO is raised the DR is not gettting smaller for a long time.
Others have a declining slope wile raising ISO. The first is better.
4 bitdepth. => the more bits are used to define a color the more different colors can be defined in a rawfile. (jpeg is 8bits.) 12bits are enough for adobeRGB and some wiggle room.
Which is for most people enough. I am not sure but i think prophoto is also inside this bitdepth.
Sensor, exposure is analoge then readout is analoge, a voltage, after this there is a ISO gain adjustment, stil analoge.
ADC, analoge digital converter. This is sampling a voltage in to a “number” so here it starts to be digital. Store those numbers in a raster and you have it mapped.
This is a latent or virtual image. (mostly rgbg) every channel has its own number. Just luminosity. The amount of light which created the voltage on the pixel and the four pixels rgbg are one group which is the data for a “color” which is used to get the rgbpixel glow in the “right” color.

So what’s important?
Noiselevel on low exposure, amount of exposure possible before the sensor is saturated.
And this is measured in the rawfile because all steps between sensor exposure and mapping is part of the SNR. And the denoising algorithm like deepprime is next in line to give you some more wiggle room.
The influence of ISO on this.

And ofcaorse features of the camera, looks, nobs and buttons…

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

@mikemyers

Simple question - what data would I need to find in the specifications for Joanna’s new D850, to compare it with my cameras?

You can find a comparison between your cameras and Joanna’s D810 here:
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D810-versus-Nikon-D750-versus-Leica-M10___963_975_1207

Go the the measurement tab and look at “dynamic range” curves. You can switch curves between what they’d look if you compared images on a screen and printed on paper of one size. Note that your cameras are around 24 Megapixels total, while a D810 has 36 Megapixels, which means that it is larger by about 20% per side (almost 5000 pixels high compared to about 4000 pixels high.

If you set your Leica to ISO 800 and Joanna sets her D810 to 800, the dynamic range as measured by DxO is 11.04 vs 11.3 stops, a difference of only 1/4 stop. If your Leica should shoot at ISO 800, you’d have to set it to ISO 1600, which will take the Leica’s DR down to 9.9 stops… (all as seen on screen)

Leica’s measured ISO is one stop lower than the ISO that’s set in camera. This makes Leica’s results look better in these charts than they actually are.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

It might not be a sunset but this is still about shooting high contrast as you would get with a sunset. We took this shot early last year as part of a tutorial. The question is, how did we achieve such a perfect exposure with the candle flame in the shot and the fruits and candle holder perfectly exposed?

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

@Joanna

how did we achieve such a perfect exposure with the candle flame in the shot and the fruits and candle holder perfectly exposed?

With soft fill-light positioned over the camera?

[mikemyers]

@platypus

Imagine a raw image file. Nowadays, they deliver values in a 14 bit range. If we took that for the histogram, it would need to go from 0 to 16383 and if we wanted to see a histogram showing all of it, we’d need a screen that is at least 16384 pixels wide…

Sorry, I am going to put this thread off until I get home. I leave tomorrow, and should be home by early afternoon. There is a LOT of information here I want to read slowly and understand, and I can’t do that right now… I’ll be back.

[George]

May I add that there’s beside a dynamic range of the sensor there’s also a dynamic range of the output device.

George

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@platypus

With soft fill-light positioned over the camera?

Well, yes, but how did we avoid flare or flicker from the candle flame during the ½ second exposure?

[mikemyers]

@Wolfgang

Suppose, the pic is important to you as you kept it.

Actually, I kept it because I was so frustrated by it, but much of that frustration came from knowing so little about PhotoLab.

@Wolfgang

While I think it to be unfair to only comment on your pic, I’ve been looking for something similar, quiet and relaxing. – Looking back at the raw-file, I centered on the sun (to straighten horizon line and minimize lens reflection), used the available dynamic range to relighten the scenery, kept the interesting silhouettes and finally cropped for composition.

Your photo from Tuscany is exactly what I wanted to capture, at sunrise, and I had to move around to get a composition like yours. Isn’t the sun “burnt out” in this image? It must be, but that’s what I meant by trying to say the composition, and all the colors I do see, were far more important. You “did good!!!”

@Wolfgang

Not forgetting that, if you don’t use the minimum ISO , you are not going to get the full,
advertised, dynamic range … … yielding better shadow detail if you ETTR .

Oops - I usually go for 1/200th or so, but I was unaware of what you just wrote. From now on, I’ll use the lowest I can get away with.

Hmm, I was just checking your Dynamic Range chart, including Nikon D750 and Leica M10. I went to compare the D750 and my Df, and was very pleased to find they are literally identical!

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D750-versus-Nikon-Df___975_925

@platypus

Instead of displaying a 14 bit wide histogram, only an 8 bit histogram is displayed, which means that each of the values between 0 and 255 include a range of 6 bits. This means that “0” includes all values between 0 and 63, “1” includes 64 to 127" etc, until “255”, which includes 16’319 to 16’383.

Thanks, Platypus, this matches what my brain “knows”, but I didn’t understand it well enough until your explanation.

@Blemerou

I don’t know, if this is the right thread, but I will try to show you my problem. During the last summer i made a pale looking photo of the lake Tegernsee:

Thanks for asking - I have the same question at times, and I think I know the answer, “ClearView”, but that has to be used carefully as people here have explained. I’m anxious to see the upcoming replies!

@platypus

Sidenote: Haze us a natural phenomenon. I’d not try to completely eliminate it.

Sounds good, over-using it can degrade the rest of the image too… A little haze is nice, fading away into the background. Makes for fascinating scenes.

@Joanna

Compare that to the corrected RAW image and histogram and you will see that the JPEG image is “cruder” in its representation of colours, especially of the pebbles on the beach in the foreground. And the histogram is decidedly “lumpy”, where @platypus explanation of bunching levels together has forced the many subtle levels into one bunch with the same level.

Something else I didn’t properly understand until just now. I knew the end results, but not the “why”.

@Joanna

You can see that both the Nikon cameras can be used at lower ISO than the Leica: the D810 at 64, the D850 at 32, but the Leica can only go down to 100. Apparently, this is a major contributing factor to the wider dynamic range, with the Leica having a range of 13 stops but the Nikons both able to cope with 14.8 stops. When you consider the each stop is double/half the luminance of its predecessor, that means, not roughly 1/5 more range, but 4x more “range”.

Joanna, are you saying that much/most of the difference in dynamic range is due to being able to use a lower ISO speed? I thought it was due to the sensor, and the electronics in the camera???

@OXiDant

Global clearview can be sharpen things too much on higher settings.

Thanks to everyone here, I’ve gotten very cautious about using ClearView, mostly trying other solutions to the same issue. For this image though, I can understand why you recommended the gradient tool.

@OXiDant

And of course features of the camera, looks, nobs and buttons…

Isn’t that the most important part of any camera? It’s why most people buy brand “A” over brand “B”, when they don’t (yet) understand all this technical stuff!!

@platypus

Leica’s measured ISO is one stop lower than the ISO that’s set in camera. This makes Leica’s results look better in these charts than they actually are.

How do we know this? So if I select ISO 100 on my M10, the camera is really using something “higher”?

@Joanna

The question is, how did we achieve such a perfect exposure with the candle flame in the shot and the fruits and candle holder perfectly exposed?

I’ll probably find a very different answer below, but I would have guessed a “fill light” making the dark areas not quite so dark, compared to the flame??? I can’t think of any setting on the camera that would allow this, although an ND filter might have cut down on the candle brightness???

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

Oops - I usually go for 1/200th or so, but I was unaware of what you just wrote. From now on, I’ll use the lowest I can get away with

I take it you meant 200 ISO and not 1/200 second exposure time?

@mikemyers

I went to compare the D750 and my Df, and was very pleased to find they are literally identical!

You mean this?

I would hardly call 1.5 stops difference in range at the lowest ISO identical. The D750 has 14.53 stops range at a claimed 100 ISO but the Df only has 13.02 stops at a claimed 50 ISO. That’s almost three times as much range.

@mikemyers

Joanna, are you saying that much/most of the difference in dynamic range is due to being able to use a lower ISO speed? I thought it was due to the sensor, and the electronics in the camera???

It’s a bit of both. By using the sensor at the lower ISOs, you are not amplifying the signal so much and, thus, also getting a better signal-to-noise ratio.

@mikemyers

How do we know this? So if I select ISO 100 on my M10, the camera is really using something “higher”?

You know this by looking at the DxOMark measurements and, yes, it would appear some of them are cheating

[mikemyers]

My favorite camera as of today is my Leica M10, and I don’t think buying a newer version will change my images that much.

For my second favorite camera, that my Nikon Df, which got the entire sensor assembly from the D4 built-into the Df. On the other hand, it is “only” 16 megapixels, compared to 24 on my M10 and D750, but in my mind, that mostly applies to the largest size I can print, and how much I can crop.

My D750, with two card slots and a typical Nikon design can do anything and everything I wanted to do with a DSLR. Several years ago, it was the best Nikon compromise, for me. I don’t “enjoy” it as much as I do my M10 and D750.

After reading the above discussions, both my Df and D750 have identical dynamic range, meaning if I don’t make huge prints or crop, I can use my Df for DSLR photography.

I can clearly see how the Nikon D850 would give me “more” of everything. For sunset photos, the subject of this discussion, I now understand why a D850 would be the “best” choice (more of everything), and I’ve got to grudgingly agree with Joanna that her charts have proved to me that the added dynamic range is likely to be beneficial on some types of photography. The not so good thing for me, is a lighter and smaller Nikon camera, while still shooting full frame, is what I feel is usually best, for me.

As to the Leica, I hope I’ve learned enough here to create “good” images, although I’m still feeling quite rusty about selecting the best exposure. From what I’ve just learned, I’m more likely to use ISO 100 now than I used to be. (I’m going to ignore megapixels, as if they are important for my photography, all my cameras are behind on this.)

For Joanna - I did get photos of the stars, and also after careful setup and a lot of guessing/estimating, an acceptable photo of the recent Lucy space launch on an Atlas V rocket. Also, as instructed, I think I got a good photo of the Andromeda galaxy, which was your “homework assignment” for me.

The above discussion is something I have been MOST interested in, as I try to capture sunrise/sunset photos every year, whenever I can, and while I’ve been learning a lot, there is a lot left for me to learn. I think I will try to do this starting tonight with my Nikon Df.

Wow, catching up on all this reading has been awesome, some things I knew, and many of those I now know better, and there’s lots of “new” (to me) information to process and try to replicate.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@Joanna

It’s a bit of both. By using the sensor at the lower ISOs, you are not amplifying the signal so much and, thus, also getting a better signal-to-noise ratio.

That’s technical incorrect. But sort off the case😊
Signal and noise is equal effected by gain set by isovalue, so “amplifying” a signal is equally “amplifying” the embedded noise. By enlarging the signal, 1 voltagelevel of 1 photonreceptor (lets call it a pixel for now aldoh a pixel technical is a rgb combination.)
You enlarge equally the noise added to that voltage level. Aka you just make it more visable.
Raising ISOvalue on your camera means the software is optimising the readchain for smaller signals and thus trying to minimise electronic noise but the shotnoise is just part of the signal period.

The better SNR of your camera is because of the more sensitive sensor hence the lower base iso. (hardware) (edit:let me explain, more sensivity means less shuttertime needed for the same signal level/value. Thus less exposure time and thus less shotnoise which is in the end part of the signal (that 1 voltagevalue) which is converted in a “pixelvalue-number” simple speaking less noise in same light conditions.)
The lower base iso is choosen because of the lower noiselevels on non gained readvalues of the sensor.

So in simple terms, the DR is 1.5 stop at the base and more then 1/2stop better at minimum of 8 stops.
The red line has some iso invariance behaviour at 50 til 1200iso, no real DR loss.
So if you can live with 13stops DR max and keep the DF camera beneat 1600iso its quit good. The 750 starts to be better at 2000iso in the declining DR level.
But DR only says nothing about noiselevels in total.
The hole readchain and ADC together defines the noiselevels inside that DR.
The factory can overshoot it’s capabilities for commercial purposes and claiming lower base ISO then it actually can handle.
(mine has extended ISO beneth base of 200. Is it usable? Maybe on highly lit scene’s with less shadows. To gain some extra DR.
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Panasonic/Lumix-DMC-G80---Measurements
Showes that the sensor can handle 100ISO instead of 200ISO but the noiselevels would be more visible so they decided to make 100 and 120 and 160 extended.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

I’ll probably find a very different answer below, but I would have guessed a “fill light” making the dark areas not quite so dark, compared to the flame???

In actual fact, @platypus was sort of right, but there was a second factor. It is actually two shots blended in camera. The first was taken before the candle was lit, with the soft overhead light to illuminate the fruits. Then the fill light was extinguished and the candle lit and a very fast exposure taken in otherwise total darkness so that the candle flame was perfectly exposed.

And, Mike, everything in the image is what I saw at the time of shooting, just not all at the same time

@OXiDant

That’s technical incorrect. But sort off the case😊

I was just trying to keep it simple

[OXiDant (Peter)]

took some time to make it work:

step 1: clearviewplus global 15-20
step 2 : gradient local: 20-30

step 3 tone curve adjustment “blacklevel” just drag a smal bit down.

The small jpeg resolution makes it ugly but try this on your rawfile.
about 1 min work, after this start fine tuning the tonality.(make it nice looking)
if it’s too sharpend, deactivate global clearview and use “fine contrast”
or lower it a bit more like 10.

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

@mikemyers

After reading the above discussions, both my Df and D750 have identical dynamic range …

Mike, there is nothing to ‘cherry pick’. At base ISO (the recommended setting for maximum dynamic range) the D750 is better. Check the diagram and read what @Joanna said before

I would hardly call 1.5 stops difference in range at the lowest ISO identical. The D750 has 14.53 stops range at a claimed 100 ISO but the Df only has 13.02 stops at a claimed 50 ISO. That’s almost three times as much range.

There is a lot of information you may ingest. Instead of quickly replying to all and everything I really suggest you ‘slow down’ and examine the examples yourself to get a clearer understanding! Otherwise it will be rather useless …

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

I take it you meant 200 ISO and not 1/200 second exposure time?

Oops, I need to proof-read what I’m thinking. Yes, ISO.

@Joanna

I would hardly call 1.5 stops difference in range at the lowest ISO identical. The D750 has 14.53 stops range at a claimed 100 ISO but the Df only has 13.02 stops at a claimed 50 ISO. That’s almost three times as much range.

I was on the right page, but the wrong measurement. Yes, I see what you mean.

I am totally confused about the ISO on the M10. This link is the end of six pages of discussion on the M10, and I’m not sure which they prefer, ISO 100 or ISO 200 or ???
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/page/6/#comments
From the last post in that discussion: “Great article from Sean as usual! It bears out exactly my feelings (use 200 ISO on the M10 if it’s very contrasty!)”

Also: " ISO 100 is less tolerant to highlights; one might guess that the base ISO of the M 10 is something between ISO 100 and ISO 200. So if ones aim is to stay away from burned out highlights one should opt for ISO 200, if you look for regaining details from the shadows, ISO 100 might be your choice. "

Useful information:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

If after six page of discussions, the guys in the Leica forum suggest using ISO 200 rather than 100 for my images that push the limit, maybe that’s what I ought to do.

@Wolfgang

There is a lot of information you may ingest. Instead of quickly replying to all and everything I really suggest you ‘slow down’ and examine the examples yourself to get a clearer understanding! Otherwise it will be rather useless …

I agree, as I am starting to feel very overwhelmed by all this, along with selecting the wrong comparison chart for Df vs. D750 which I now see is obviously preferable. Maybe I put away the Df as a collector’s item.

Regarding the forum, if I “slow down”, I get days behind. I try to think of this as a huge jig-saw puzzle, and I’m putting pieces in place, but then I realize I am confusing pieces from different parts of the puzzle. The best thing though is when I pick up my camera, and think about what I’m actually DOING, I realize I’m getting better at that while all the information settles in somewhere or other in my brain.

@OXiDant

Signal and noise is equal effected by gain set by isovalue, so “amplifying” a signal is equally “amplifying” the embedded noise. By enlarging the signal, 1 voltagelevel of 1 photonreceptor (lets call it a pixel for now aldoh a pixel technical is a rgb combination.)

There are some parts of this discussion that are so far above what I think I know, that I’m not even going to ask what they mean. Peter could probably explain the question in the Leica forum better than anyone in that forum. Then there are people like me, that rather than feeling overwhelmed, wonder if it’s really necessary to understand this stuff. I’m much more comfortable asking what to do in PL4, and why. I know SNL is very important in designing a camera, but I’m not sure how important it is for a photographer to understand??? I’ll possibly catch up, eventually. My brain is wired differently, I think, which is why I never could get the hang of calculus and analytic geometry either…

@Joanna

And, Mike, everything in the image is what I saw at the time of shooting, just not all at the same time

Gee!!! Now it sounds obvious! Double exposure. My D750 can do it, I think my Df can do it, but I doubt if my Leica can. Even my film Nikon F4 can do it - I was reading about it a few weeks ago. I guess that’s called “thinking outside the box”.

@Wolfgang

I really suggest you ‘slow down’ and examine the examples yourself to get a clearer understanding! Otherwise it will be rather useless …

As I read, and re-read, and re-re-read, most things here eventually start to sound quite logical, which is good for stuff I knew nothing about earlier. Every so often another “Aha!” moment passes by, as something new suddenly starts to make sense.

OK, now that some things have settled in, and others remain quite fuzzy, what about this:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

To me, this looks like for most of the ISO range I’m likely to use, there isn’t much difference between the three Nikons and my M10. Does this mean the sensors are similar, and the software in the cameras is what allow one camera to show up as better/worse than another?

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

@mikemyers

To me, this looks like for most of the ISO range I’m likely to use, there isn’t much difference between the three Nikons and my M10. Does this mean the sensors are similar, and the software in the cameras is what allow one camera to show up as better/worse than another?

Quite true, at higher ISOs.

If there is enough light (or a tripod) the M10 and the DF lag behind by 1.5 stops at low ISO settings, as mentioned earlier. You’ll be able to take pictures with whatever camera you choose. Concentrate on the image, composition and such things. It’s not pixels that are important…

[OXiDant (Peter)]

Thanks for the complement but when the formula’s and calculations are starting i am lost too.
I learned the basics and try to understand the definitions so i can connect things together.

So that’s what you can try. Wrap your head around the basics, delete all clouds in your head. Take time to understand, knibble information pieces.
Most things in the box are, wel just in the box. You only need to know which button to push to get something done. And yes it’s better to understand what a button is activating inside the box but if not and the box is doing what you want that fine too.
Don’t forget to ackknowledge what you do know.

[mikemyers]

@platypus

If there is enough light (or a tripod) the M10 and the DF lag behind by 1.5 stops at low ISO settings, as mentioned earlier. You’ll be able to take pictures with whatever camera you choose. Concentrate on the image, composition and such things. It’s not pixels that are important…

Well, anything I buy, with rare exceptions, will lag behind tomorrow. I can play that game with Leica, but see no need to do so. I can play that game with Nikon, but I can’t afford to. I fully understand Joanna’s reasoning for the D850 - it may well be the last DSLR from Nikon that will satisfy her needs - just as the F6 was the last SLR, after which there was - well, the DSLR. And after the DSLR, there will be Mirrorless. I fully agree with the words that I highlighted, but in my case I already have the D750, and for the kinds of photos I’ve been taking lately, it’s technically the “best” camera I now own.

Does it matter? Probably. Composition and timing and “the image” are most important, but I can’t picture Ansel Adams using a lens for which he had a better replacement.

I guess I’ll be finishing up my photos from my recent trip, including my “homework” for Joanna, and then perhaps dust off the D750 and challenge it, and me, to get at least a single image each day that I am satisfied with. Then there’s the processing - but I feel better about that now than at any time in the past two years.

@OXiDant

You only need to know which button to push to get something done. And yes it’s better to understand what a button is activating inside the box but if not and the box is doing what you want that fine too.

Translated into my brain - find the optimum balance for whatever dynamic range I am dealing with… …and if possible, realize how I am using what I’ve learned here to achieve that.

If I can accomplish both, I will have accomplished at least part of what Wolfgang is suggesting. (…and I have no intent in starting a new discussion on a different topic until I am comfortable with Dynamic Range.)

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

@mikemyers

Then there’s the processing - but I feel better about that now than at any time in the past two years.

PhotoLab has many tools, which does not mean that we have to use them all. Processing features can help make a picture or break the image. Happiness has more to do with wanting what you’ve got, than with getting what you want.

Using a camera or software is like wearing blue jeans. It takes a while before it gets comfortable. Happy to hear you feel better about the things you do.

[Blemerou]

Thank you!