Rest assured, it’s hard to write anything as silly as your posts… I tried, but am afraid I will never get close enough to that level of mastery.
No, it’s not. The Z6 has an EVF, the D780 an OVF, and no matter what you believe to know. I suggest not to talk along test reports and if you have no own experiences to compare, how about remaining silent?
No matter how often you repeat this, I would not bet a single dime that you stick to this “promise” which btw. is another silly idea.
Once the “birders” stated the same silly comment, OVF and AF speed and blablabla, and now look at Steve Perry or Mark Smith: Enjoying 30 fps, 1/80.000 sec, no black out and a very sticky AF field together with bird recognition, no matter of the current framing. Raising the battered flag of the order of saint mirror is becoming a running gag. And I just sit back and enjoy the show.
Only if you compare it with using the rear screen on the Z6. Otherwise, it is a case of EVF (which the D780 doesn’t have) vs OVF.
That sounds like advertising hype. There is absolutely no difference in “mirrorless” mode between the D780 and any other DSLR. Both use the rear screen.
I bought my D850 less than two and a half years ago and I have only just past the 2,600 images taken mark. Why on earth would I ditch such a virtually new and unused camera body, just to keep up with the latest fashion trend?
Except it isn’t a true mirrorless with an EVF. You still have to hold the camera away from your body to see the “mirrorless” image and that means not being able to see it in bright sunlight. It also means that the reaction time to reframe a shot is longer because you have to move your entire arms to move the camera over a longer distance, instead of simply twisting your wrists or even just your fingers.
Then there’s the issue of electronic shutter lag whilst the sensor is switched off from viewing mode before it is then opened in taking mode.
Or you can shoot yourself in the foot wasting time deciding on which mode you want to use. With my D850, all I have to do is raise it to my eye, frame, focus and shoot.
Which is exactly what you would be doing if you use the rear screen instead of the viewfinder.
Rubbish. As far as I can tell, the main difference is that it is claimed that mirrorless sensors use a different technology to focus.
Except, if you mean the Graflex Crown Graphic, it is an LF camera, designed to be handheld, with a rangefinder coupled to the focusing rack and a wireframe finder on the top. One thing it definitely wasn’t was an SLR. The parallax between the finder and the lens is enormous and you would need to put it on a tripod to use any movements. This really was a press camera that you set up for the shoot and left it at average focus, approximate framing.
What amuses me is, in period detective shows, the photographer appears to be looking through the back of the camera and taking multiple shots without changing the darkslide
That certainly helps.
Except you are not looking directly at the sensor. You are looking at a mini screen, which is showing an electronically transmitted version of what the sensor sees.
Very rarely.
Very important is that you realise the limitations of that 300mm. If the subject occupies much less than 50% of the frame, don’t bother shooting - by the time you have cropped in pot, you will end up with pixels instead of details.
If the image isn’t properly sharp, PL does not have the capability to do remedial work like that. Topaz is far superior. The trick is to learn how to get it sharp in the camera.
Yes, I do when it is difficult to reach the viewfinder, like low-level shots.
Oh, absolutely. You just reminded me we used it yesterday for a “studio” shot of a Savoy cabbage. The D850 has focus peaking indicators, which are great for seeing what is in the depth of field or not.
I couldn’t agree more. It’s a case of using the right tool for the job and I have never seen a wildlife photographer use the rear screen for moving subjects.
Before you make a statement like that, you need to do some research.
The D780 does have a OVF on the rear of the camera near the top.
Yes, the Z6 replaces this with an EVF.
However, Nikon completely re-engineered how the D780 works, allowing people to view the OVF up on top, like always, and to lock up the mirror and install the Z6 hardware and software, such that the “Live View” window is now viewing EVF information - and the tricks and tools that people love so much from “mirrorless” are now available in the D780.
If we want to watch “live” scenes, via the mirror, that is done on the top viewfinder. If we want to watch the live data from the sensor, that is done on the bottom window - and this allows all the special tools and software from the Z6 to work just as well on the D780.
Of course, this sounds ludicrous. I read it long ago, but didn’t accept/believe what I was reading. A month ago, I would have agreed with what you wrote.
Me? I have no desire to buy a Z6, due to a friend’s negative experience with that model. I can’t afford a Z9, and it’s too big/heavy. But my friend bought a Z8, and tells me it is perfect for what he wants/needs. For between $3K and $4K, I could have a Z8 - after which maybe new lenses, and who knows what else… and I would lose all the things I (and @Joanna) love about Nikon DSLR.
Assuming all this sounds as silly to you as it did to me, check out the links on the D780 yourself - it does what I assumed was impossible, and in the “mirrorless mode” I get the advantages available when cameras react to the actual image data on the sensor, live, as it happens.
I have done an intensive search and can’t find anything about “installing Z6 hardware and software”. Do you have a link to such info?
From everything I have found, the rear screen “enhancements” (because it is not an EVF) are all aimed at video work.
Tell me. Are you really going to be comfortable holding the camera out far enough from your eye to be able to see image? And which hand are you going to use to use the touch screen?
If Nikon updates the D850, it might also include this - but with a bigger and larger sensor, Nikon might figure they’ve already done this with the D780. Who knows, maybe there will be a D880 ?
My old D80 had liveview too. I don’t have it so just by remembering. But the D700 and D750 does have it.
I think you read something wrong and/or took he wrong conclusion.
By the way, the Z6 wasn’t that the camera you would not by?
Stenis
(Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))
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I don´t agree with any of you in what you say about reading instructions, looking at instruction videos or reading a book.
I will tell you about one of my photo secrets. We Sony-photographers has a big advantage together with some of the Fuji-photographers, because we have always had Gary Friedman that in detail all the way from the first Sony model A100 to the new A9 III have written us his lovely extremely useful “Friendly Manuals” over all our Sony models.
Since Gary is both a really passionate photographer and a seasoned teacher with a really good pen, he has as no other I know about managed to write instruction books that are the total opposite to classic hopelessly boring manuals.
When somebody reads one of his 6-700 pages long manuals, he/she will find themselves both reading a manual covering every single aspect of their cameras different functions BUT they are also described interwoven with real life applications and configurations. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else.
Sorry for you Nikon- and Canon-users but this time it is full advantage Sony and to some extent Fuji, because the support for Fuji-models was something that he started to offer far later.
I must have bought six or seven of these manuals starting with NEX 7 and my last one is for my current first camera A7 IV.
Without having had the opportunities to read and learn from these very useful friendly manuals I would not have come so far as I have done as a Sony-user. Reading these manuals have had an increasing value also of the reason that each camera-model seems to get more and more complex with more and more features that also are dependent of each other often. If I compare my first Sony A7-model the A7r with my present A7 IV it feels like the last one has at least the double number of functions.
One strange thing is that people tend to spend thousands of dollars on cameras and lenses without a blink of an eye but rarely are prepared to spend * $34.95 for The Friedman Archives Guide to Sony’s A7 IV or any other camera for that matter. A manual like this really creates value by opening up the possibilities for us to discover and use functions we might not have been aware of existed even before. Without this knowledge we tend to buy cameras we don´t understand to use really properly. Isn´t that a pretty stupid waste??
Many new users of Sony cameras often complain about the menu-system mainly because they differ from Canons BUT in fact Sony is exemplary when it comes to complying to the old rules of thumbs that professor Christianssons team at the technical university Chalmers in Gothenburg. Through his empiric tests he settled for a recommendation of max 7 ±2 choices on each level in the menu-system and also avoid menus with just two alternatives since that seemed to make people anxious. In my A7 IV I have seen that Sony really follows that recommendation BUT just the sheer number of options and functions results in deeper and deeper menus instead.
… BUT there is a solution for that too and that is customization of the user interface of the cameras and that has been tremendously improved in just Sony-cameras that has become extremely flexible when it comes to the possibilities to configure the user interface. It has taken me years but properly configured, you will hardly ever need to descend into the menyswamp of a Sony with one stupid exception - “Format”, but there is at least a “My Menu”-solution for that too.
I mostly prefer books but I won´t say no good instruction videos. Unlike what I normally do I have really appreciated the “Learning Hub” of Capture One.
For the first time in my application using life, I have seen all the videos of Capture One. Sad to say there has not been so much to read in book form about Capture One but when I was using Lightroom I really liked Scott Kelby’s books about Lightroom 5 and 6.
Sad to say as an old teacher younger people all over at least the western the world seems to have bigger and bigger problems reading longer and more complicated texts. In this case some people in the far east seems to be an exception like for example Koreans and Chinese. That fact just has to get an impact on the future development in different countries. In my country there is a fact since decades that girls read far better than the boys in school to. We start to see the effects of that to I´m sad to say.
It is as mirrorless as my D850 - only when using LiveView.
So what exactly does the D780 mirrorless rear screen give you that my D850 rear screen doesn’t? Do you have to use your fingers to change things?
The buttons on the D850 (and on the D780) allow one to change anything to do with exposure without the eye leaving the viewfinder. Since I need my right finger on the shutter release, my right thumb on the AF-ON button and my left hand on the zoom ring, how am I meant to interact with this screen, which I would be obliged to hold at arm’s length?
Please tell me, what is the real, tangible, advantage of using the rear screen for wildlife photography?
And where can I buy an extra hand to use it?
By the way, my Mamiya 7II is also mirrorless. Just like an old Leica, it uses an offset viewfinder
" That’s because the D780 has 273 phase detection points on its sensor and that raises its game considerably over the contrast-detection autofocus system that’s on offer when the D850 is in Live View mode .
I start to believe “You sometimes are dumb beyond belief, @mikemyers” It’s simply YOU desperately in need to do some research before blurbing around and try to lecture others.
That’s what I said, unfortunately your reading capabilities need some development. And there’s no such thing as Z6 firmware on a D780, it never was and it never will be!
Actually, there’s a little bit of a difference. While the D780 just snaps a picture in LiveView after you push the button, the D850 will first do kind of some mirror gymnastics if you’re not in silent shutter (=electronical shutter) mode. As soon as you need the mechanical shutter to avoid banding at fast shutter speeds in fluorescent light, the mirror will come down, shutter closes to start exposure, after that mirror goes up again. So, your and mine D850s are blacked out for like a second or a bit more.
I used to get. confused by instruction manuals, and got into the habit of buying books - much easier for me. I have books for all my cameras now, having just ordered two books on the D780 last night. Books are usually more “readable”, for me at least. User manuals used to be awful for many cameras, as the people who wrote them didn’t understand English that well. Then there are often lots of YouTube how-to videos…
Mike: Learn the design differences between SLRs, rangefinders, and the mirrorless digital camera before spouting off the marketing info.
Rangefinder: The photographer looks through a different, smaller lens than the main lens used to expose the film/sensor. This “viewer” is offset to one corner of the camera. When the shutter is released the camera opens the shutter to allow light from the main lens to hit the sensor/film. The rangefinder view is not impacted. See the traditional Leica cameras from 1950-1980s.
SLR/DSLR: The camera does not have a separate lens for the viewer (single lens). The camera has an internal movable mirror mechanism that redirects the light from the main lens up to a viewer, through a prism that flips the image “upright” and displays to the photographer. This had two advantages at the time - the photographer was seeing the same scene as the camera film/sensor, not an offset rangefinder version. The prisms could also be made such that they helped adjust focus optically.
When a picture is taken, this mirror arrangement springs out of the way to allow the light to travel to the sensor while the shutter was open and the viewfinder loses view. (Remember this from the days when you did a long exposure - bulb?) This is why they are called Single Lens Reflex. Lots of manufacturers in the 1960s-about 2000. This is where Canon and Nikon made their names.
When digital first came along the film back was simply replaced by a digital sensor. The lens, mirror, focus methods, viewfinder, and other items were still handled by the optics mechanisms in a standard SLR. As digital progressed, the ability to focus electronically came along and has gradually replaced the mechanical/optical methods. This is the “phase detection” and other technologies hyped by the manufacturers. In the early days done by a separate digital sensor. Now it is built into the image sensor.
Remember, all this is occurring while the shutter is closed and the mirror “down” and the sensor (now digital) is hidden behind the mirror and shutter screen.
In your DSLRs the optical viewfinder (OVF) is still handled this way and the mirror is still down blocking the image sensor. When you switch to “live view” the mirror flips up, blocking view in the OVF, and exposing the image sensor to light. This allows the camera to display an electronic “live view”. The shutter is then handled “electronically” rather than a rolling shutter.
A “Mirrorless” camera does away with the mirror and prism mechanism and presents an electronic view similar to “live view” in either the back screen or through a now electronic viewfinder EVF. Eliminating these mechanical/optical parts simplifies the camera reducing weight and allows for faster continuous shooting. (I’m skipping over some details.) This advantage allows the photographer to use the “live-view” technologies from within the traditional viewfinder.
The quality of the image in these newer EVFs is not as good as a true OVF, especially in good light, but gradually improving. The EVF can also display sensor info, such as exposure limits just like the back screen “live view”. So a photographer choosing a camera would need to decide if the OVF quality outweighs additional digital info and lower weight.
So, what I would be getting is a multi-point AF sensor? But I virtually never use auto-focus and, if I did, I would want to be in control of where in the image the focus locks and follows. With 273 points, how do I do that? Trying to touch the right point at the right time at arm’s length seems to be quite a difficult task when you are trying to follow a bird.
The D850 also has matrix focusing on the LiveView but, what I find more useful is the focus tracking outlines, which tell me what is in focus
Apart from a few more focus points, I fail to see any advantage apart from the detection method and would ask again, how do you see trying to photograph birds with the camera at arm’s lebgth and both hands already occupied?
I tried, but am afraid I will never get close enough to that level of mastery. 
