MOIRE - deeprime - XD - XD2s - STUDY CASE

I don’t have many examples where this happens as strong as this, but here’s an image with lot of moire problems (pattern, colors).

Following images only have denoise and lens corrections applied but distorsion is not because it seems result is slightly better without it on some small places.
Burned zone can be corrected - still datas in raw file -, but I prefer not mix corrections for comparison.
Softness setting is higher than what I would normaly choose, but I based some tests on those values and it’s lower than default values.
Deeprime is rendered in pl6 - I assumed it has not changed in pl8 since name remains.

“Irridescent colors” are circled in red as well as parts affected by moire correction (eyes).

Deepprime
------------- softness 0 - moire OFF ---------------------- softness 0 - moire 100 ------------

XD
------------- softness 0 - moire OFF ---------------------- softness 0 - moire 100 ------------

XD2s
------------- softness 0 - moire OFF ---------------------- softness 0 - moire 100 ------------

Moire pattern
There are lots of them, mostly in the top and in the right part af the image, where dof fade - no need to circle them.
They are about unchanged between 6 images (depprime/xd/xd2s/moire on/moire off).
Maybe those interference patterns are not moire related ?

Moire “iridescent colors”
They appear slightly in deepprime and moire correction attenuate them a little.
XD shows almost none of these colors, and the moire correction makes them disappear almost completely.
XD2s shows lot of those colors. Moire correction attenuate them but not that much.

And moire correction diminish eye color (wich of course can be easily corrected with control points).

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Great examples and posted in a very helpful way. Here’s what I see. The differences are so noticeable because there’s a color shift in the moire patterns from XD to XD2s. The bluish areas in the XD2s images are tan in the XD rendering. That means moire is much less noticeable in the overall image from XD, but not absent. The cause could be your camera sensor, as changes in demosaicing are resulting in changes in color rendering but not much else. (In both cases there is moire.)

Various mask options in PL could help you get rid of these blemishes. A change in Color Rendering probably won’t help, but might be worth a try.

Camera is nikon D850.

I’ve found a similar example for feathers in the wing of a mandarin male duck (taken in May). Compared PL8.0 DP and DPXD2S. With most of moire both dealt quite well, but DPXD2S, unlike DP, left some parts with moire – similar to your example, but somewhat bluish.

It was shot with Z8, which like D850 is prone to moire, but I rarely shoot birds or other things which may trigger it.

Did DPXD2S remove some moire in your example? Maybe you can post the version without NR applied?

Indeed there is lot, lot of moire on this image.

And indeed XD2S removed a lot of it. But it did the worse job compare to XD or fprime. So this is a step backward, not forward.

The point is XD did the best job on this kind of image, and does not exist anymore since v8.

This image is not a keeper for me, but I’ve just get PL8, so I’m checking how it behaves.
(AIs learn but sometime forget …)


here it is, scary moire, isn’t it ?


I prefer this one (which has lot of details at full size) :wink:

Your example looks very similar to mine with the mandarin male duck.

My examples: 654x490 full resolution crops from 8256x5504 image taken with Z8 (FF, 45mpx, standard Bayer, weak sort of AA filter) and Plena (135mm) at f/2.0, 1/640 sec, ISO 1600, focus distance 6.4m, mandarin male duck in May, subject detection OFF, wide area (S) AF on the head, first day of combo testing. I have 4 other similar images, with slightly different focus – none of them has visible moire.

PL8.0 settings: Generic rendering using Z8 (no optical corrections, no LSC, …).

1 – Denoise and Moire tools OFF:
WZ8_1004_1_NoNR

2 – Denoise=DP at defaults, Moire=OFF:
WZ8_1004_2_DPdefaults

3 – Denoise=DPXD2S at defaults, Moire=OFF:
WZ8_1004_3_DPXD2Sdefaults

4 – Denoise=DPXD2S at defaults, Moire=100:
WZ8_1004_4_DPXD2Sdefaults_Moire100

5 – Denoise=DPXD2S with Luminance=40 and Force details=-100, Moire=OFF:
WZ8_1004_5_PDXD2S_Lum40_ForceDet_minus100

Seems it happens when problematic subject is right in focus and very sharp.
Demosaicer can’t make the image right. Eurasian coot has no coloured sheen. Those are pure moire colors.

How do you like the plena ? Finally a cine lens bokey :wink: ?
Does pl optics module do much for it ?
Has it fast AF ?

AFAIK, moire does not happen for out-of-focus areas, as in this case the lens “substitutes” AA filter.

My example in NX Studio 1.7 looked similar to DPXD2S output. Switching on Moire=High in NX didn’t make difference either. Didn’t try various options in RawTherapee but my previous experience wasn’t good. BTW, playing with distortion didn’t make any difference with XPXD2S (if I remember correctly, switching it off cured one old case mentioned in this forum, perhaps due to some bug). Moire quite often is deadly, I think.

I don’t take video. Not sure what you mean by “cine lens bokey” – it reminds me of ancient Nikkor 135/2 DC, which has an old style rendering and can create magic, but is a bit soft by today’s “standards” – I like it mostly at f/2.5. I have also AFS 105/1.4E, the only lens I bought in the 2012-2023 period. For portraits shot wide open, it’s easier to edit in PL than Plena – it’s sharp, but not deadly sharp, while the bokeh is not too much “worse”. For portraits with Plena, I often go down with microcontrast into -20 or so, and make some fine contrasts also negative, but that’s question of taste. With stage lighting, Plena is (obviously) the best of the three (bokeh, coma, ghosts). Vignetting on 105 at f/1.4 is almost 3EV, while for Plena wide open it’s something like 1/3 stop, if I remember correctly. With dim light this may limit usable ISO for 105, if you want to preserve details at the edges, but I rarely had to care for that. Definitely, I much prefer Plena with leg zooming over 70-200/2.8S. Plena has neglible CA, so PL has nothing to do here. For “standard” city snapshots I use LSC Global=0.0 most often, but with Plena I go down to -0.5. For portraits, with LSC=-0.5 hair will look like wires, and mostly I use -1.50 or -1.00, depending on the subject.

Autofocus for 105 is the slowest of the three lenses, even on D4, and it’s rather useless for sports. I didn’t try it yet on Z8/FTZII. AF for the Plena/Z8 works far, far better. I waited for Z8 firmware upgrade to v2.01 before buying it, as there was green cast problem, and AF initially wasn’t good enough for me. With new firmware, I had no problems shooting martial arts training sessions with Plena (wide open almost all the time), which required 1/500-1/1000 to freeze the faces. With full speed fights (1/1000-1/2000s or even faster for best guys) I had to switch to 70-200/2.8S, but maybe I don’t have enough practice yet with Z8. For weddings, dancing events, Plena AF speed is more than sufficient, imho. However, learning and setting up Z8 for your efficient use is a looong process. Most of the time, I had AutoISO on, limited to 12k, and PL7/8 deals with that very nicely. Plena brings to me two REAL problems – too many keepers and I start to dislike other lenses.

Z8 is a bit noisy imho, compared to D780 (with Z8 rescaled for 24mp) or D850. It’s the same problem as with Z6III or Canon R5II – their sensors were designed for mirrorless fast readout, which comes at a price. Still a point for technology to improve. It can also get quite hot, which perhaps also impacts noise level (?). Good CFexpress card, several spare batteries, and extra battery loader is good to have.

The three lenses, mentioned above, are very different in terms of rendering and I have yet to make any decent conclusions. But with Plena/Z8, I really experienced a shock. Poor people can’t afford cheap things, so I bought this damnly expensive combo having long term use in mind. So far, I don’t regret. But treat my observations as initial, as I haven’t yet “merged” with Z8, like I got with D4.

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A curiosity question;

I get why the 2nd generation of DeepPRIME XD would be labelled XD2 … but, what is the “s” in XD2s intended to imply/represent ??

John,

XD2s is apparently designed to bring out even more details and ensure exceptionally smooth bokeh in your images. Whether it is significantly better than the XD2 implementation in PureRaw 4 I can’t say since I am not a PureRaw users.

Mark

Also what does the Force Details slider do for the problem?

Were you referring to my last comment? In my experience Force Details does exactly what the help feature says it does. Its appropriate application is very image dependent.

Mark

image

Yes - I get that, Mark …

I’m wondering, tho; what is the “s ” in XD2s intended to imply/represent ?

Perhaps ; Special or Super or Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious ?! :grin:

I don’t know what the “s” represents.

Mark

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Second version?

No. Surely it means superior.
Next version could be XD2xs. :slight_smile:

It seems negative values of Force Details can partially help dealing with moire, but the price could be too heavy. The image may look artificially smooth, faces can turn to plastic.

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Since the word “superior” is mentioned in the help popup I agree that it is likely what the “s” indicates .

Mark

Distorsion correction reduces very slightly some zone of sharpness. (have to compare à 100 % zoom or more to see this clearly). So I don’t use it on images which does not require it.

Maybe not the best example, but it’s the only one I have available right now :

zoom 400% distorstion OFF

zoom 400% distorstion ON

zoom 100% distorstion OFF

zoom 100% distorstion ON


cine lens bokey quality. Nice and even all along the frame. 105 f1.4 does not produce even bokey (eye cat near the edges for example). (I was not talking about video).

Yes, I’m aware about this.

That’s a real problem :upside_down_face:. You should resell it :smiley:.

Isn’t it more pronounced on Z6III ?
Of course best is D5/D6 when iso rise.


Thanks for your very interesting feedback about this lens and Z8. Very appreciated !


Ok ! It mixes probably with new optics modules.
Testing them I saw that sharpness gain (sofness setting) is more concentrated on the sharp zone of the image and decrease faster than previous version on less sharp zones.
I didn’t make the same comparison (v6 vs v8) and deepprime. Will do it.