Feedback on practice image

Hey folks… Wondering if I can get some feedback (kind but honest please)… As many of you know, I’m learning this software and trying to get my head around a b/w workflow… including control points and control lines (there are plenty in this one). This was done entirely in DxO PL8 manually (meaning I didn’t use Filmpack or Silver Efex – with the exception that I added tri-x 400 grain to the image)

I’d appreciate if some would take some time to review and give me feedback. Thank you for your time, if you choose to do so.

Tom

Deleted images

If that is really the case, can you post the DOP file and, if possible, the RAW (if necessary by PM) You may be over-complicating things.

I will post them. Would you mind giving me an idea what makes you think that I’ve over-complicated things based on what you see?

Tom

Deleted by me.

Hi, Tom. I trust that you have permission from the image owner to post it here (per the forum’s terms of service).

Feedback on your black-and-white conversion is going to be subjective, of course. My own opinion is that the original color image is more interesting: the shadows on the cliffs give more of a sense of depth. The camera angle is excellent, as is the effect of using a wide angle of view. Colors are muted but somewhat complementary.

In your image the sky looks more like water. Is this an effect you wanted? The way I see it, all the texture is in the sky and not in the land mass. Which part of the image do you want a spectator to focus on?

Thanks for the feedback. The ‘idea’ is learning an Ansel Adams style (or trying to… apparently not very well - lol) whom I’m currently infatuated with.

Tom

Ah! The Holy Grail :crazy_face:

I do a lot of B&W work and, also doing large format 5" x 4" film work, I have learnt (and am still learning) from the master.


My initial comment was - why is the shadow side of the island as light in places as the sunlit side? It’s as if someone was sitting in a boat to the left with a gigantic mirror.

You haven’t applied the lens module corrections.

Next, you have stirred up masses of noise by using Micro-contrast in addition to Tri-X grain.

Here’s a comparison of yours versus mine…

And here is my version…


First thing I did was use a red filter, which is what Ansel Adams would gave used to bring our sky detail, plus my favourite film (Fuji Acros 100).

You have done all sorts of adjustments with the HSL and Channel Mixer tools, none of which had any real effect.


Instead of all your Control Points and Lines, I just used two Luminosity Masks.

One for the sky…

… and a reversed copy for the rest…


For the sky, to add to the cloud contrast, I used ordinary contrast on the mask, as this avoids the excessive noise that Micro-contrast can provoke.

Anyway, here’s the DOP file with my version added…

Video 1.dng.dop (167,7 Ko)

I hope you don’t think I have been overly critical - I just wanted to share my way of working. Feel free to comment back.

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First I looked for the color version,

  • so that all colors come into their own
    (improved in this case since your version is pretty flat)
  • and the image has sufficient but no excessive contrast,
  • then used the standard B&W conversion in PL8 to see what is interesting
    (adjusted horizon and crop)
  • and went back to the color version.
    Video 1.dng.dop (47,0 KB)
    .

Exported this ‘finalized’ color version to Nik SEP 7

  • applied a custom preset
  • switched to CEP 7 → Darken/Lighten Centre
  • switched back to SEP 7 to control the tonal values spread
    (didn’t change anything)
  • finalized the B&W output

The whole thing was straightforward and much quicker than this “explanation”.
(I leave the PL/FP… conversion to the specialists and don’t copy any style.)

Thanks @Joanna . No, of course I don’t think you were overly critical. I’m trying to learn and I asked. I’m in full learning mode here.

I have yet to figure out how to do a luminosity mask as you have done. Would you mind walking me through how you achieved that? I see what looks like masking (and erasures) outside the image?

Further, some of the changes you see in the HSL and Channel Mixer tools were just me experimenting (and realizing that ‘some’ of them weren’t doing what I expected). However, the blue channel and aqua on the Channel Mixer tool served to help blacken the sky. Which is the specific look that I was after. The control points on the island were just my attempt to learn how they work in a dodging and burning use case… I very clearly and obviously overdid them leaving the island flat. (again, learning). As for the sky, how would you achieve a much more blacker sky?

Later in his career (as you probably know) Ansel used a lot of dodging and burning to create HIGH contrast, dramatic images with black skies. This is what I’m trying to emulate. (there are PLENTY of examples of this out on the internet… the vast majority of them using Lightroom and ACR and PS. Obviously, I’m invested (financially) in DxO products and I’m trying to figure out how to achieve this workflow with these tools. And I was trying to stay within PL8 instead of jumping out to SEP7, which I also own, or even using FP.

Tom

Thank you @Wolfgang .
I like what you’ve done… in the style that I’m looking to achieve, I’d like to see the sky blacker (Ala Ansel Adams later in his career). How would you achieve that?

Also, can you do this within PL8 alone?

Tom

OK. This was experimentation, as usual.

I put the pipette on the grey sky at what I judged to be part way between the darkest and lightest areas of the sky…

You can see how I changed the shape of the wedge in the palette, to ensure that the line around the “edge” of the sky was fully masked. This gives a much cleaner edge than the Control Line, but at the expense of having to manually clean up the mask away from that edge.

Then I start with the brush tool to completely cover the rest of the sky towards the edges…

… until the whole sky is painted in…

I use the B&W mask for this stage as it is easier to see missing bits than with the coloured mask.

Then I switch to the eraser tool and do the same to everything I don’t want to be included…

Try not to overlap the line where it goes around small details like the tree branches.

Here it is with the red mask, which shows what is behind the mask and what isn’t…

The difficult bit is finding out how to include the edge, leaving areas that don’t touch it and then “repairing” the rest.

Once you are satisfied with the accuracy of the edge, simply duplicate the mask and invert it…

2 Likes

Thank you @Joanna. I will give this a try.

Tom

Well, possibly but, this is not the kind of sky that requires pure black as it is very mottled and just starts to look “overcooked”.

But you could always try duplicating the sky mask to see if that helps…

What is most important is that, like Ansel Adams, you don’t get that disgusting grainy effect that digital tools tend to give.

1 Like

Just another interpretation

In order not to mess with other’s sidecars:
Sombre Island.preset (14.9 KB)
(Absolute preset)

Following, as I too want to learn how to adapt these ideas to a few photos.

Thank you to @joanna, @Egregius, and @Wolfgang for sharing!!!

The sky in your example is much brighter than the sea and is not uniformly blue (or with some gradations), but has many fine clouds. If you darken the blue of the sky and/or add local contrast, it quickly becomes very busy… and then it distracts from the island and the sea. → The sky is not the motif/topic in this example. :man_shrugging:

Not saying this because I’m lazy ( and I am when I know a faster track).
Tried many things like darkening the blue before using Nik SEP or doing this in Nik SEP, added a second instance of Nik CEP Darken/Lighten Center w/ different settings, used a Vignette Filter instead … had even worked the whole thing with a different crop to bring the sky into greater focus. – It just didn’t look convincing (to me).

Note – always prepare the color file before converting it to black and white.

.

@Joanna showed you in detail how to use masks and operate PL. Now you need to experiment yourself.
:slight_smile:

I appreciate this feedback… However, and I probably wasn’t clear, I’m actually not looking for critique on artistic decisions or even photographic ones. I’m only looking for TECHNIQUE and software critique and guidance. I am trying to learn the software and techniques to use it to do “THIS TYPE” of editing.

So are you saying that you couldn’t figure out a way to make the sky as black using PL8? Again, I’m only asking because I’m trying to learn this software that I have a rather large financial investment in.

Indeed… that’s what this is all about.

Tom

@Joanna, I haven’t been able to get in front of my computer today, yet. When you use the luminosity mask like this, are the channel mixer controls available for just the mask? I see the HSL controls in your screenshot.

Tom

You must not begin to interpret what I have said. Your example doesn’t work with what you want. – Of course you can mask the sky and darken the whole thing, select the blue and darken it, etc., but that doesn’t look good.

Just in case you’ve never worked with B&W before,

  • use a red filter to darken a blue sky (in Nik SEP → Colour Filter).
  • and/or the blue channel/channel mixer (in Nik SEP → Sensitivity)

Experiment, it’s not that difficult. There is no ready recipe.

And you must not be comprehending what I’m saying… I don’t care whether it works or not. I am only using this image to try and figure out techniques of HOW TO USE THE SOFTWARE.

But I tell you what. I think I’m done. This is the second time that I’ve posted an image on here asking for help WITH THE SOFTWARE and how to do certain things in THE SOFTWARE. Only to have someone tell me how bad the image is or why what I’m trying to learn doesn’t work.

I appreciate those who have tried to help me but I’m guessing I’m not gonna get what I need from this forum. Or out of the software unfortunately. I’ve learned myself a very expensive lesson.

Thanks anyhow.
Tom