Denoise with detail

If you know the author of the video, you should know its target is to get best result as possible.

He generally says he wants one good (outstanding) shot a day of work. Before he goes shooting he plans precisely the shot he wants to take to get this best result.
And when he post process it he wants to control very precisely every step about image quality.
So for him, what matters is to get the best result as possible, not to be able to process tons of images a day.

In your test you choosed a fixed setting when doing it in LR, when the author would have adapted them to each shot, and sometime done even more work than what he shows on its video to get the best noise reduction and getting as much details as possible from its shot.

So I think If you want to go fast and get good results with automated process, PL is very good at it.
If you really want to be sure you get the best quality out of your shot and control everything, you should work very hard and get as much experience as Steve Perry has.

He wouldn’t have post process any shot as you did with LR (most (all ?) of them even wouldn’t have be keepers for him).

Captain Obvious delivering the final judgement on the matter : in any case it is a video for somebody who has no clue about ACR/LR as it is difficult to imagine a normal ACR/LR user does not know what he is trying to explain … just a clickbait as a tuber needs to fill the feed to stay afloat … ACR/LR users have one relevant handicap - they can’t preview combined effects w/o constantly opening and closing the AI/ML tool to adjust other settings … DxO users even with a crippled smaller preview in the tool can…

He often does tutorials for beginners and and wealthy old retirees.
That’s a fact.

But that in no way detracts from his experience and the quality of his work with the tools he recommends.

First, this so small preview is unusable with 50 mp cameras (several aurguments for that).
And DxO users have no control over variations in the amplitude of presharpening in the image.
So yes, PL is good for automated process with default settings (which need to be modified in presets to be ok) …

The idea for a wildlife photographer to get one “good” image per day is not viable. Ansel Adams and other scenic photographers can do so by staying at the same location until everything is “perfect” for the photographer’s artistic vision (unless something unexpected happens, such as a temblor, volcanic eruption, a dam failure with flood, etc). Wildlife comes and goes; in post, I find the “best” images, either for myself or for what I think a client wants. I have worked in blinds and waited most of the day to see what I want, but even that is no guarantee the relevant species or behaviour will happen. The other issue is the amount of time – one has to have a production balance between cost/time invested and ultimate “quality”. Using film (including Velvia) and lower resolution digital sensors, getting a keeper was more of an issue – modern digital sensors are approaching the “quantum mechanical” limits of imaging in the respective image dimensional format, and far outperform most emulsions. Thus, one has a larger volume of images with which one works, and workflow time efficiency becomes an issue. One can push/pull, dodge/burn, and adjust than with a dichroic head much more quickly in digital post than in a darkroom/enlarger provided the computer has adequate memory storage and computational throughput. In fact, many professional lenses that were adequate for emulsion are less than adequate for “modern” digital sensors – this showed up for me on a Nikon D800E and much more so on a D850 and now Z8/Z9 along with limitations in AF “speed” from the lens itself. The technology has improved over, say, Velvia with a Nikon F5.

Indeed this is not quite right now.
But this is the idea. Quality versus quantity.

@JoPoV
I appreciate your suggestions regarding technique and your observation that these photo snippets appear soft. The intent was to present zoomed in snippets to better compare the NR capabilities of these two programs.

The snippets are 1500x1000px crops from a 8640x5760 photo (Sony a1 with the 200-600 “G” zoom lens). So the snippets appear as a nominal 200% or larger zoom when viewing. This makes them “soft”. They are also perhaps “soft” from the 'less-than-ideal" shooting conditions as you point out.

So why did I choose these photo?
Any of the current or past NR algorithms can improve a well captured shot. These quality photos have a great “signal to noise” ratio to feed the algorithm. The challenge for NR programs is preserving the details (sharpness) while suppressing the noise when the starting photo has a less than ideal “signal to noise” ratio. The question becomes how much can be recovered from these photos, and what types of challenges is the algorithm best at recovering. Nature photographers often face these challenges, that’s why Steve Perry is even talking about high iso photos. So I choose a variety of intentionally “challenging” photos to highlight, as best possible, what these two programs can do.
While a “soft” photo may not be marketable, the softness also presents a bonus challenge for the NR algorithm so as to minimize additional loss of sharpness.

Steve Perry’s video was focused on Adobe’s noise reduction techniques. The original poster, @wildlifephoto, appeared to be asking how this compared to PL’s method. There are lots of example out on the web. I choose some recent nature photos to show a comparison for less-than-ideal shooting conditions that a nature photographer might encounter despite rigorous preparation.

The photos were shot using a Sony a1 with the Sony 200-600mm “G” zoom lens, so nominally a 50mp raw photo. Iso ranged from 4K to 12.8K. All photos were “sharp” given the available shooting conditions. All photos were shot hand-held from within a 6-person Land Cruiser safari vehicle typical in the Serengeti. The softness here comes both the shooting technique as well as the pixel peeping nature of the displayed crops.

Also, I purposely did not state my conclusions in the first post to allow the reader to decide what was important to them, expecting they actually review the full-size photos.

I agree with your criticisms as to photography techniques (to the extent that any nature photographer can control the shooting environment). Yes, Steve Perry, and others share videos talking about these techniques. I watch some as I often see something that help me learn or refresh a technique. I also know nature photographers that only shoot at private ranches with blinds specifically arranged for “nature” photography to get “perfect” conitions for commercial/competition reasons. My personal challenge is to get as good a shot as possible when hiking or travelling for our personal collection. I still aim for “the perfect shot” and keep coming back to try again. I meet others with similar goals.

Why did I choose these photos?
The lion and chameleon photos filled the frame and were properly sharp as described by Steve Perry’s 200% zoom test. The chameleon was also shot at 12,800 iso per Steve Perry’s claim. The Topi and bird photos were shot from a distance and, obviously, heavily cropped to show the subject. Low contrast around the Topi’s face against a bright background makes this one challenging. While these cropped photos are more for “documenting” the observation I still want to make the best of them for our personal collection and chose them to represent poorer lighting conditions as well as the cropping impacts. Please review the actual photos with that in mind before passing judgement. There are several iterations of the LR options in the link. The DOP’s and XMPs are included too. I welcome additional suggestions on how to get the most of any of these photos.

I purposely choose to show the results of these “tests” without providing conclusions so others could draw their own conclusions. Perhaps I should have stated that explicitly.

When Adobe’s new noise reduction algorithm came out I spent a lot of time trying to get it to work, including pre-sharpening. I hoped to discard PL and stay with a single program workflow. I have used the 3rd party options too.

My conclusions from these examples are consistent with my previous comparison attempts, both with “quality” photos as well as these more challenging photos:

  1. A properly exposed photo (sharp focus, proper lighting, and subjects filling the frame) provides a better starting point as this provides a better “signal/noise” ratio for the NR algorithm to use. You, Steve Perry, and I agree. No duh… However, the challenge is to get the most out of limited “data”.
  2. Steve Perry’s suggestion to do some sharpening before running the noise reduction is valid as it makes it easier for the LR user to observe the preferred NR amount in the loupe. Not news.
  3. Both programs provide sliders to tweak this balance of sharpening/NR to the user’s objective. NR does not fix a poorly focused or overcropped photo.
  4. Both programs provide a similar result, but PL’s method is much easier for me to incorporate into my workflow than a strict Adobe routine.
  5. PL usually provides superior results for less-than-ideal photos despite significant effort tweaking LR’s sliders in my periodic testing. Any program works for better photos.
  6. PL took less than 1 minute to export these 5 50mp photos to DNG. Adobe took twice as long. (On my PC, so others will have different results.)
  7. Adobe’s tools allow more tweaking before the export, saving time. PLs loupe is too small for me to use effectively without some trial-error exports. So overall time depends on use.
  8. The user’s screen quality, resolution, and size all impact the user’s perception of sharpness and noise. No duh! Steve Perry recommends reviewing at 200% for his use case with a 5K monitor. I toggle between 100% and 400% on both my screens just like when fine-tuning other parameters.
  9. I tried sharpening before DP export in PL but didn’t see any advantage over sharpening the DNG along with the other adjustments. That is still a personal work-in-process. As a result, require an intermediate (de-mosaiced) DNG file be used in the workflow. Adobe’s stack does not add value for my workflow.

Additional thought…
When the majority of noise is in the background and subject is “sharp” I find a 2-layer technique is more effective than NR algorithms as I’m generally softening the background anyway. Unfortunately, PL’s subject selection tools are not as effective as Adobe’s when doing this technique.

1 Like

soon to be me sans “wealthy” part , that’s obvious

neither do Adobe’s users in ACR/LR , DxO’s users can control (A) DP vs DPXD and their parameters and (B) Lens Softness Correction … (A) + (B) = effective “pre-sharpening” ( even it is not called that name , that’s obvious )

NO → PL actually very good for interactive tuning (granted one wish bigger preview in the tool) , ACR/LR → NOT so ( switching preview ON and OFF and ON and OFF and ON and OFF and ON and OFF and … ? so stupid ! ), that’s obvious

regurgitating obvious things for entry level ACR/LR users must be tagged that way and does not deserve be posted in various forums except in kindergaten sections - that’s obvious

there is NO pre-sharpening in ACR / LR … previewing effect of sharpening in ACR / LR tool for AI/ML NR ( that includes Adobe AI/ML demosaick - mandatory / non-switcheable ) that will happen AFTER AI/ML NR is NOT pre-sharpening.… and that is what DxO PL has ( except that unlike ACR/LR DxO PL has something that can be actually called pre-sharpening )

that’s obvious

allow MORE they do NOT vs DxO PL ( size of preview tool is just a matter of personal pain - not something that allows more or less tweaking and constant switching of preview tool in ACR/LR is MUCH MORE painful if you engage in serious tweak ) that’s obvious

Semantics. That was discussed before.
The NR preview loupe shows the effects of sharpening before/while the user adjusts the NR amount.

The Adobe loupe is at least twice as large and allows me to float it over the picture to better compare the effect of NR selections. Maybe your eye are better than mine, but the larger loupe helps me.

dear, switching of AI/ML NR & demosaick effect ON/OFF in the preview tool is not that … in DxO PL you can adjust ANY and ALL effects in real time ( and not only ONE NR slider ) and see the outcome, in idiotic ACR/LR implementation you need to CLOSE the tool to adjust other things that you want to preview in combination with AI/ML NR & demosaick and OPEN the tool again and CLOSE it again and OPEN it again, and so on … it is not “Semantics” - it is a core functionality, that’s obvious ( not for you, I get that )

twice is large is the only plus ( yes, I wish too to have a bigger preview in DxO PL ) - all the rest is the minus (specifically the need to constantly close and open the tool to adjust stuff outside of the NR slider) or the same, that’s obvious