Changes, pbo files, manual/autosave

Hi. New to PL8 and not too familiar with photo editing in general.
I’m a Canon user and I’ve only been using Canon DPP for about a year and finally pulled the trigger on DxO PL8. I’m using Windows.

I’m confused about how to control what I’m doing. I’m a computer “power user” so to speak and I find it highly unsettling when a program autosaves everything I do. I understand changes are saved to sidecar files (.pbo) next to the raw file, which I guess is fine. However, I see no “Ctrl-S” option that saves what I’m doing. I noticed anything I do is automatically saved so next time I start the program it continues where I left it. That might be fine, but what if I just want to open an image and mess around but NOT SAVE the changes, or what if I EDIT BY MISTAKE.
I found a setting under “Edit->Preferences” called “Save settings in sidecar file (.pbo) automatically” which was checked, so I unchecked it, cranked the exposure to max and closed the program. When I opened it again, “TADA!” my exposure change was automatically applied. That is not how the majority of software works.

I don’t get it. What exactly did I just disable and how to I get PL to behave like a “normal” program that saves when I want it to and warns me if I didn’t save before exiting? Is there no actual manual save process? Does Ctrl-S do anything? There’s not a single option in the “File” menu that intuitively tells me “This will save your work”.

Welcome, Synthetic! With PhotoLab and similar software, you’re learning a different kind of editing process. Some things to be aware of:

PhotoLab is a non-destructive editor. This means that the original file you are working on isn’t altered by PhotoLab. Instead, the edits are stored in a database (inside PhotoLab) and, if desired, sidecar files (.dop and .xmp extensions). I highly recommend the use of sidecar files.

PhotoLab is a parametric editor, meaning that you may apply edits in any order and undo them as you wish. The edits are saved continually in the database and sidecar files.

The closest experience you’ll have to CTRL+S is exporting your image. You may export to disk or to an application, and in so doing a file will be created of type JPEG, TIFF, or DNG. You do this when you’ve finished your edits, and you may make further edits and export again if you want. You can also create what are called “virtual copies” of an image, which lets you work on different versions of an image without having to export or alter the original.

It’s a great way to process images once you get used to it. There’s a lot to learn, and the community here is happy to help.

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I’m guessing that you are used to software allows you to forget to save and lose work.

I use a Mac and the majority of software that I use automatically saves. It means that, even if my computer crashes, most, if not all the work I have done up to the crash, is not lost.

In your example of making accidental changes, all you need to do is Ctrl-Z to undo those changes. There is also a history that you can back out as long as you don’t quit the app.

Then you have virtual copies that you can use as checkpoints.

PhotoLab saves its state to its database primarily and, optionally, to DOP files.

When this happens, you can select the Reset button at the upper right corner of the Customize tab (the screen where you edit your image). That will remove all edits that you’ve made to the currently selected image.

Even if I have done previous edits and I’m reopening the file later and change it but don’t want to keep the changes? I might not realize until I’m done, or if it’s a mistake.

So I mean that the program should warn me when I exit and have not saved. Thus any changes will not be lost unless I actively choose to not save when that dialog pops up. The vast majority of software works like this.

Another variant I’ve seen (e.g. in MS Office programs) is that there’s also a separate autosave file which can be automatically recovered in case the program crashes and you restart it and it detects the autosave file, and it’s separate from the main file.

I also saw the .pbo files were generated by default and I just assumed this is where PL saved all its changes in order to leave the original file untouched.
I understand it’s a non-destructive editing process, as Canon DPP sort of does, but there I believe the settings are stored in the raw file itself, though it’s always possible to “revert to shot settings” (which I guess is simple to do in PL8) but also more importantly “revert to last saved settings” which is what I miss because I’ve been using it.
I find it very odd that such a mechanism isn’t available in PL8 when it seems superior in basically every other respect.

But again, what does disabling “Save settings in sidecar file (.pbo) automatically” actually do then, since the edits do get saved regardless?

Disable backup in *.DOP files means that everything is saved only in the database.
We advise you to use the Side-Car *.dop and *.xmp files to be able to recover all this data in the event of corruption of the database, otherwise you will have lost.
If necessary, you can redo your database from these files.
And it also allows you to work on another PC if necessary.

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That is a personal thing. As a consultant software engineer of some 33 years experience, I find it disturbing that there are still apps that don’t auto-save.

In this way, you can come back to all your changes separately and as often as you want.
Software like Lightroom, Capture1, On1 … works this way.

I’m not against auto-save, but I’m against auto-overwrite-save, in particular when there’s no set point for me to go back to.

If you want to set a save point, just create a virtual copy. Then you have the choice of continuing to edit the first one or any subsequent ones.

And, as others have said, PL never overwrites the original file. You can always revert to it at any time.

But it’s not how most photo editing applications, certainly not those that process RAW files behave. Even Canon’s DPP software, which appears to work as you describe, is not doing quite what you think it is doing.

I realise you describe yourself as a ‘power user’, I’d describe myself that way too, but it took me a while to adjust from creating, editing and saving, Word and Excel type files to processing RAW files from my camera, so please allow me to spell things out in detail.

To illustrate what I mean, here’s a screen shot of a Canon RAW file (a .CR3 file from my Canon 90D) that I’ve opened in Canon’s DPP4 and to which I’ve made some ridiculous edits:


If I click on the ‘save’ button above the image I get a typical Windows save dialog, but look if you closely at how that dialog is titled, you’ll see it says ‘Convert and save’ and the only file types you can choose from are JPEG or TIFF:

In other words, DDP is processing the RAW data as defined by the edits and writing that converted data in a non-RAW format. In photo editing terms that convert and save is ‘destructive’, it bakes your edits into the JPEG / TIFF and so even if you reopen the JPEG / TIFF you cannot undo the edits and reprocess the RAW data in a different manner.

Having ‘converted and saved’ I’m done so I want to quit DPP, so I click File | Exit. At which point DDP throws up another dialog about saving changes:
image
Note this time there’s no choice about where or in what format the file will be saved. DPP is going to update the RAW file that was edited.

At this point most people here who have never used Canon’s DPP software are probably feeling faint at the idea that original RAW data is going to be lost, because the edits are going to get baked into the RAW file and thus they’d not be able to reprocess the image in a different style at some point in the future.

Don’t panic! Yes, the edits are written to the original RAW file but they are stored within the RAW file in a manner that only the DPP software can see. You can reopen the file in DPP, decide your first edit was rubbish and reprocess it differently, i.e. this save was non-destructive, phew!

The non-destructive nature of the save that Canon’s DPP applies to a Canon RAW file is also evident when you reopen a RAW file saved by DPP in a different photo editor. Other editors don’t understand the extra info that DPP has written to the file so they just ignore it. Here’s what the RAW file + crazy edits I made in DPP look like if I reopen it in Photolab:


NB the washed out colours are because the forum can only handle images in sRGB colour space but I work in a wide gamut colour space, on my monitor (and when I print) the colours in this sunset are vivid oranges and reds.

Are you still with me? I hope so…

In order to apply what you’ve learnt from working with DPP to Photolab you’ll need to learn some new terminology.

  • The equivalent of DPP’s ‘save and convert’ dialog is the ‘export’ feature.
  • There is no direct equivalent of DPP’s prompt to save when you exit Photolab. This is because whenever you make an edit in Photolal a description of that edit is automatically written to the PL database and (providing you have ticked the option in Edit | Preferences | General tab | Correction Settings heading, and you should) to a .dop file.
  • The lack of no prompt to save on exit is not a problem because, even though the edits that were autosaved during your previous editing session are automatically reapplied, you can either pick up and continue from those edits or you can revert to a clean slate by reapplying your default starting preset.

I hope the above helps.

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I would just prefer to have a “last save” or “last session” save point automatically set up for me, because otherwise that virtual copy relies on the user to remember to create one every time you open an image in case you make an accidental edit and you don’t realize it.

My main concern is ruining a previous edit I spent a long time on.

I open a file I already edited earlier and start editing it and realize “oh, wrong file”, I have no way of going back to the exact same point it was at before, unless I created a virtual copy, which I probably wouldn’t do if I wasn’t intentionally planning on doing something temporary. Or if I open a file to demonstrate something, and mess around with it a bit, and forget to create a virtual backup, how many times do I need to press ctrl-z? Again, user responsibility to remember, but again user responsibility to click “Save” or “Ignore” when closing without saving seems better to me.

Having a forced auto-overwrite (of the edits) and then requiring the user to explicitly remember to create a backup “before the accident” seems like an unsafer route, rather than having auto-recover-save files and exit confirmations.

Starting over from a clean slate is not my idea of undoing my latest unintentional changes to a previously edited image. I simply think it should be an option to not force-overwrite-save, but I like temporary autosaves in case something crashes.

Anyway, seems everyone is used to it and are trying to talk me into how good it is, so I just have to live with it, but I don’t like it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes you do, at least you can within your current session, investigate the Advanced History feature, click Palettes and tick ‘Advanced History’.

I never use that button though :wink:
I press ctrl-s, which according to the File menu means “Save”, without converting. If I browse through all the images in a folder and rate them, that counts as a change, and when I close the program, it will ask if I want to save the images. If I click “Yes to all” it will save them, without converting them. Exactly as I expect.
If I want to convert an image to JPEG I press ctrl-d, or select the option in the File menu.
I appreciate the effort you took in your explanation, but I still think the feature of “only saving my edits when I want to, unrelated to jpeg conversion” is what I would like and what I’m used to in most other SW, but again, I’m quite new to image editing SW, though I can’t see why that particular group of SW should be different to most others.
Anyway, I’m gonna have to live with it as the exception to everything else I use I guess.
Thanks anyway :slight_smile:

Oh? This I did not know. I’ll check it out. Thanks!

I stress again, the Advanced History is only kept for the current session. It doesn’t retain a record of previous sessions

[at least not in the Windows version of PL, the Mac version of PL does retain history from previous sessions]

Which is what virtual copies are for.

I start with the untouched RAW file…

Then I create a VC and do a starting edit…

Possible not quite right, so I make another VC and try something else…

Ah, that’s better. So, now I create another VC for converting to B&W…

Not sure about the framing, so I create yet another VC and change just the framing…

Nope!!! I had the framing right first time. So, all I have to do is delete the last VC and export the previous.

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Thanks. I see what you mean.
I however still think virtual copies are like “I’ll put my seatbelt on now because I know I’ll need it in 10 minutes”, but when you don’t know you’ll need it you don’t put it on… until you wish you had…
I’m not gonna change my opinion :slight_smile:
I don’t want anything to be saved unless I explicitly save it, either through my action or a popup on application exit forcing me to make a decision (autosave recovery backups in ANOTHER file are good though).
I’ll leave it at that and have to adapt I guess. :wink:

Thanks everyone :slight_smile:

Creating a VC is not saving anything. It is just creating another copy, within the existing DOP file, either if you want to experiment or if you want a “temporary backup” which can be deleted at any time