PL 4 stuck after start while importing database and parameter

OXiDant · October 21, 2020, 5:46pm

Same here in the mac world.
Do you have a big Database in v3.3? In windows it looks for personal settings, database and presets which it “copies”. So i assume in mac OS the same happens.
As @mwsilvers suggest it maybe choking on the large amount of user data of v3.3 which it needs to digest by installation.
Dopfiles are only changed updated to v4 by selecting a folder or if you activate indexing.

Lucas posted above a way to find out what’s your issue.

(I hope some mac users can help you in the mean time.)

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 5:48pm

Oh sorry, missed the post from Lucas, thx Peter.

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 5:51pm

Hi Lucas, thank you for trying to help. Do you mean with “Sample Process” “Prozess analysieren”, which means analyse of the process? If yes, I did save the analysis text. How to send this now to whom please?

P.S.
Sent you a message with the file

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 6:02pm

Had to do a little research first on how to find the database. Mine with PL 3.3 has 2,59GB. And there is also already one for PL 4 with the same size. Just wondering the date of it is from yesterday. There is also a file “DOPDatabaseV4.dopdata_output” with 1,14GB. For PL 3.3 there is none such.

uncoy · October 21, 2020, 6:07pm

Wow, that’s bad news. My main laptops are a 17 inch and a 15 inch 2011 MBP which are capped at High Sierra (last MBP where one can upgrade storage oneself and which can be easily repaired, last MBP with matte screens, next to last MBP with a non-butterfly keyboard). Not impressed with DxO starting to require the latest OS to use their software. It makes a lot more sense for third party developers to allow as many people through the door as you can. The only publisher with an interest in forcing people to upgrade their OS (and hence their computer) is Apple. DxO, no need to do Apple’s dirty work for them.

Here at home I run Mojave on my Mac Pro 5,1 but I really need cross-compatibility between my laptops and the main system. Wow, I’m speechless with disappointment. I would personally sponsor DxO to add back High Sierra support.

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 6:28pm

Ok, I solved the problem, but not really. Temporarily removed the database of PL 3.3 and the already existing one of PL 4. Now PL 4 starts without any problem.
So the problem seems to be the database created by PL 4 that it converted from PL 3.3.

OXiDant · October 21, 2020, 6:32pm

The same happend with win7.x when v3 came out.
Not running the install.
This v4 has got a major under the hood reprogramming to let DeepPrime do it’s thing.
So win10 needs to be up to date too.

It’s something about support and garanties i think.
It’s build, scripted, wrote for a certain OS and uses in Deepprime modes alot of “new”
Of this OS.

Sometimes a application runs but dodgy when it’s recromented for a newer OS and you use it in a older one.

About the stop of OS update, yes it’s in my eye’s a oblication of the manufacturer to keep your hardware running safe and up to date. It’s a commercial forced way to buy new hardware. Vs a commercial nightmare for software builders to retrobuild backwards compatible application versions or have multi OS versions tangled together
like in the 32 64b win version earlier . It’s even in the folder visible:
Program files and program files (x86)
Revering to this?

Jykes!

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 6:38pm

Put the database from PL 4 back to the corresponding folder, “DxO Photloab v4” in ~/Library/.
PL 4 starts to create a file named, “DOPDatabaseV4.dopdata_output”. Before it was more than 1GB. Now it stucks at a size of 212MB. So for me this file seems to be the trouble maker.

P.S.
Deleted the first database built by PL 4. Put the database of PL 3.3 back and started PL 4. Works now. But PL 4 also does not create anymore a converted database from PL 3.3.

OXiDant · October 21, 2020, 6:38pm

Now you can place the v3 version of the database back (edit: In the dxoplv3 folder) without any problem.
If you don’t used the database for keyword entry and such it’s better to use :delete and recreate database in v4. It gets all edit data from the dopfiles back. So you get a new fresh database.

In preference you can uncheck “update dopfile writing” and use only database and reading dop file.
So you can browse and test v4 wile keeping the dopfiles in v3 level.
on a later moment you can manual force to create dopfile from database and activate the automatic updating dopfiles.

KameraD · October 21, 2020, 6:50pm

This is a very helpful advice for me because I have never dealt with this topic before. Will try it now like that.

mwsilvers · October 21, 2020, 6:55pm

Alec,

Support for High Sierra was discussed at length before PL4 was released. DXO’s position is that they are only willing to support a limited number of OS versions. As new ones are added, presumably old ones will drop off. I’m just reporting their position, not defending it, but it is unlikely DXO will backtrack and support PL4 on High Sierra

Mark

uncoy · October 22, 2020, 4:24am

There’s usually no good excuse for cutting off OS versions except that the developers are lazy to run the older X Tools to build on the older OS. DxO really isn’t in a position to be cutting off its users. I’ve bought the upgrade to 4 now, but without support for High Sierra, I may refund that upgrade. It would make me sad to do so as I support the mission at DxO intensely but it really pains me that DxO would arbitrarily cut off their customers.

This kind of arbitrary behaviour motivates me to look more closely at open source applications (not just for photo software). This upgraditis has made IT a net productivity loss over the last dozen years after being a huge part of productivity improvements in the previous twenty years.

@OXiDant Your response makes little sense. It sound more like the twisted apologetics a religious scholar contorts him or herself into to justify the contradictions of their beliefs. What the OS developers are doing is security theatre, not real security (if you followed the OS X security issues, you’d realise that the only person locked out of his or her computer now due to all the extra security theatre is the user, not the malware developer).

OXiDant · October 22, 2020, 5:54am

Well my opinion is lost in translation i think.
I agree with your complain that this kind of force to buy new stuff isn’t fair.
If it was me i would keep my win10 version for ever but each update they do will bring me one step closer to the end of life of win10.
The fact that in this case DxO did a cut off in which OS will be supported is made by them even doh the macBetatesters argued about that decision. So it must be a large change and costly change to include Siera.

That’s more what i said.
When OS’s are changed defelopers has to go with that change and when you write a totaly new part of software you have include every OS which is out there for 10 years down?

Reason’s why OS is changed is mostly forced by hardware that’s released by the request for faster, slimmer, better pc’s mac,s and smartphone’s by us customers.

Not the bassing of criminals on your virtual doors is the reason for new versions OS.
Those can be writen in the present OS.

And yes like covid economical cost are backfired due taxes in the future by goverments it’s end up on our doorstep.

Only thing you can do against it is not buying and that’s not working for taxes by goverment unfortnunaly.

uncoy · October 22, 2020, 6:25am

No developers don’t have to go with that change. They can continue to support OS which are in use, rather than that recommended by the corrupt manufacturers who are forcing endless “upgrades” on the public just to generate churn. And of course I don’t mean infinite support. Occasionally there are major revisions to the OS which improve the ability of software developers to add new tools. As Photolab is cross-platform, I don’t think there were changes which required orphaning High Sierra or even Sierra users. In particular, all MBP 2011 which is very popular with photographers can no longer run Photolab at all.

Generally five years of support for any application would be perfect. In that case, OS X 10.11, El Capitan would have been the best crossover point as it was introduced in September 2015 and was rather a stable and troublefree OS (Mountain Lion OS X 10.8 and Snow Leopard OS X 10.6 were the previous good ones; High Sierra is the last headache free OS X version, after that Apple starts to lock down the OS to make it less convenient for users and more convenient for them).

As Photolab 3 only went as far back as 10.13 High Sierra I wouldn’t expect DxO to go further back in a future release. The GPU processing DxO are doing would preclude going too far back.

I didn’t join the beta program as I read the terms. You promise to effectively say nothing about Photolab ever again. It meant giving up one’s independence. Clearly I should have, as my voice was needed there to make the case for High Sierra support.

Early impressions of Photolab 4 (on the one computer I have which can run it) are positive. DeepPrime is slightly different than Prime (not sure if it’s better or worse: you be the judge on this ISO 16000 photograph) but at least four times faster to render. These are both set at Luminance 12 (default is 40) and Chroma at 100 (default).

Standard Prime on ISO 16000 D850 image

DeepPrime on same ISO 16000 D850 image

Here’s the original RAW image in case anyone wants to experiment with a difficult ISO 16000 file under artificial light.

I’m missing two-screen layout at this point and an easy way to bring up my Essential Tools palette (I have to use the workspaces menu to bring them back). Essential Tools should really be the first of the six tool boxes at the top of the right hand set of palettes.

florisvaneck · October 22, 2020, 7:00am

We don’t know if it is arbitrarily. But I don’t like forced obsolescence, and agree with the spirit of everything you say.

I think it is a matter of resources and where developers want to spend them, pure and simple.

The problem is testing. The more versions you have to support, the more testing you have to do, the more virtual machines you have to maintain, the more dependencies you have to manage, and the more exceptions there will be. And DxO is a small shop with limited resources so it absolutely makes sense to cut off older versions (where the cut-off point is a matter for discussion but for that you more information).

And then there is a matter of clarity… it seems like DxO has a clearly formulated policy that they support the latest 3 OS releases and we can all decide if that is acceptable.

Often there are still ways around this… changing a flag in a configuration file. Not sure if that works for PhotoLab 4 on Mac? But you would still run unsupported software once you run into problems, which for me is undesirable.

However, based on the current macOS market share I do see your point since High Sierra still sees significant use (over 1 in 10 Mac users):

.

I would like to see Long Term Support versions for more software, that might not change much over the years but do get patches for lens and camera support and better algorithms. I also find it a pity that we don’t have more creative software running on Linux. I tried some open-source software over the years but never fully enjoy it.

BTW, Windows looks like this (Windows 7 is also still quite substantial):

I guess you would still need to look at the market share for actual PhotoLab users before you can make a solid judgment about these matters.

Lucas · October 22, 2020, 7:21am

Hello,

DxO is a relatively small company with limited resources. Generally speaking, supporting more OS versions means more testing work and more complex code to write (because OS updates provide newer technologies that simplify our work, or fix bugs which doesn’t force us to write workarounds). So we have to make a choice between the amount of features you’ll be able to get, and the supported OS. We cannot just provide as many features AND support older macOS versions.

To give a more concrete example, DeepPRIME on macOS uses a technology called Core ML. This is what runs our DeepPRIME algorithms either on GPU or on CPU. Machine Learning is a rapidly evolving area, as such Core ML already existed in macOS 10.13 but was a lot more limited than it is in macOS 10.14. As of today, DeepPRIME cannot work on macOS 10.13 without writing workarounds for these limitations. And we come back to the choice between OS support and features.

I understand that this is frustrating and that major OS updates come with downsides like sometimes forcing you to update hardware or with software features that you don’t want. In an ideal world we would have unlimited resources and would write all the technologies ourselves which would make us independent from OS updates, but that’s not how it is. I just wanted to make clear that DxO doesn’t drop older OS versions just for stupid reasons.

KameraD · October 22, 2020, 7:45am

Since PL 4 is now working fine for me, I also can say it runs so far smooth on my iMac. See the specs above. It feels even more faster. But that’s maybe also because its using a fresh database

AngerM · October 22, 2020, 8:31am

I just ran into this same issue w/ PL4 Upgrade. I have a 6 core I7 w/ 32GB of ram on a 2018 MBP, and let it run for over an hour and PL4 just sat there stuck. Yes I have a lot of photos, etc but isn’t photolab for professionals? Gave up and had to blow away all my PL3 and PL4 settings and start from scratch. Guess I won’t be wasting money and upgrading ever again.

Joanna · October 22, 2020, 10:47am

I too feel that cutting off operating system support for older versions is a big mistake, although understandable in some ways when the versions being dropped are those that still support 32bit.

However, now we should all be on 64bit OSs, I would be severely annoyed if Apple decreed we needed a new machine every three years to support this or that “advance” in the OS. That then starts to add around €800 per year of costs, on top of software upgrades, which for some may be unsupportable.

I guess for some it needs to be both. I know, from time to time, I would like things like the ability to flip an image or to merge images as in a panorama or multi-exposure shots, although the need for multi-exposure to get rid of noise should be less now we have DeepPRIME

uncoy · October 22, 2020, 12:48pm

To be honest, @gregor this is not at all what DxO should be telling its users. 2020’s Apple are corporate rats engaged in share buyback to pump up their options, while doing the maximum amount of damage to the environment. Butterfly keyboards break with a single crumb: outside of Apple care you may as well throw away your computer. Only the top and bottom of an Apple laptop are now replaceable (gifted third parties can work around this somewhat with scavenged parts), making a battery or a keyboard replacement an €1100 fix.

Apple is doing untold damage to the environment and robbing their users with their repair and upgrade unfriendly policies. It’s all for the sake of executives’ share options. I really don’t think DxO should be adding and abetting such a destructive mission.

@Lucas Thanks for your detailed reply.

I just wanted to make clear that DxO doesn’t drop older OS versions just for stupid reasons…DeepPRIME on macOS uses a technology called Core ML. This is what runs our DeepPRIME algorithms either on GPU or on CPU. Machine Learning is a rapidly evolving area, as such Core ML already existed in macOS 10.13 but was a lot more limited than it is in macOS 10.14. As of today, DeepPRIME cannot work on macOS 10.13 without writing workarounds for these limitations.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the specific issue. In this case, if DeepPrime can’t run on High Sierra without a lot of trouble, it would be fine to have DeepPrime disabled/invisible on High Sierra. You’d say DeepPrime is the core feature of Photolab 4. Sort of. The core feature of Photolab 4 is Photolab 4 itself. By allowing Photolab 4 to run on High Sierra but with Prime instead of DeepPrime, you’d allow full cross-compatibility for users like me who have their two of their main computers stuck on High Sierra due to Apple policies but do have access to a machine with Mojave.

FYI, my MacPro 5,1 is EOL’d at 10.14, Mojave. I will not be replacing it for another three to five years. There are lots of us out there. I highly suggest DxO maintain Mojave support as long as possible.

This computer is 12 x 3.1 GHz (was 3.33 GHz but runs quieter at 3.1), Radeon VII with 3 x 4 TB SSD, 2 x 2 TB SSD, ultra fast ACHI 1 TB drive, 1 x 10 TB spinning drive. And that’s counting only internal drives and I still have three slots open. Apple’s only comparable computer in terms of flexibility and expandability would cost me about €15000 in a similar configuration.

In any case, a new build which would run on High Sierra but without DeepPrime would be much appreciated by many in the photographic community. I don’t even mind if that build is not officially supported.