Off-Topic - advice, experiences and examples, for images that will be processed in PhotoLab

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

Further on the subject of master printers and their relationship with photographers…

The World of Master Printers - An ILFORD Inspires Film

The point is, you need to either be skilled in preparing images for printing, or find someone who is. It’s sometimes a collaboration that is needed to perfect the photographer’s vision - a mixture of the artistic eye and the technical hand.

BTW, we have used Ilford/Harman labs laser printer for some of our large silver gelatine prints - they are simply stunning and, at 40"x32", framed, they are worth every cent.

[mikemyers]

Thank you SO much for posting this video. Beautifully done, and some of it I understood/remembered. All of this is from a world I completely lost track of.

My only contact with that world is here:

darkroom and digital

…and they process my B&W film for me. The images in your video remind me of their shop.

I can easily see you and Helen making use of a shop like this to create museum quality prints, or for Art Galleries.

And for this level of work, everything I posted earlier is simply nonsense. Yes, everything, and every tiny detail, needs to be perfect. What I wrote about PhotoLab does not apply at all to these photographs.

…on the flip side though, I am creating photos to be viewed on-line, and I no longer print anything. So, for work of this quality, everything I wrote recently is rubbish.

You are taking me into a world that I have completely forgotten. The largest print size I could make was 16 x 20, and to be honest, what I shot back then didn’t deserve to be printed that big. When it became available, I thought digital was for kids, and I remember tying to ask people what “a pixel” was. I’ve long since forgotten this world.

My only connection was when I took photos for work, and the owner wanted huge prints created for a big show at a Convention Center. The images were shot with an Olympus E-10, 4 megabyte camera. Somehow they made those huge prints look like they came from a 8x10 View Camera!

I guess I should try to see things from your point of view, not mine.

From that point of view, I apologize for the nonsense I posted earlier. I guess I’ve forgotten all about my earlier life, when things like this were important to me. Lately I’ve been taking “snapshots”, and I’ve forgotten so much, as it no longer applies to me.

The video you posted - I watched it from beginning to end, and completely enjoyed every minute. Later this evening, I will watch it again. I loved the scenes of New York - beautiful. And I enjoyed the studio videos - I don’t ever recall watching video like that. It was fascinating to hear from all the photographers, and printers. It was a world from back when I was 30 or 40, and wanted so badly to go what “the big boys” could do.

Check out the link I posted - you may feel right at home with what “Darkroom and Digital” is, and can do. And they are only half an hour from my front door.

If I were ever to get serious about that world again, I guess my D780 is good enough, if I got good enough. And if I were to do that, then you are so right - I would need to understand all the little details of image capture and editing.

(…but if I ever did get that good, and I had them print up some mural-size images I can easily see how that would be useful for work that I do in India, but I have no idea what I would do with those huge prints here at home.)

This post sure brought back memories…!!!

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

I have no idea why he thought he had to export those images to a “Project”. Maybe all of you do this? I keep it simple - when I export images, they always go into a sub-folder inside of the folder with his original image files.

You don’t export to a project. It is time for you to learn how to use a feature before making incorrect assumptions about what it is for and how it works.

Mark

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

Let’s assume what you wrote is correct, and let’s assume I only understand 1/4 of the features in PhotoLab? So what? I know how to use the tools and features that I use to edit and export my images.

Again you are being completely clueless and not understanding what I’m saying. The issue is that you have used hundreds of hours of our combined goodwill trying to get you up to speed at no cost to yourself. Hundreds of hours of free expert resources expended specifically on you with minimal effort on your part. So minimal you continue to sound like an inexperienced newbie.

In the end those hundreds of hours were a complete waste of time on our part. With all the input you received, if you had the slightest bit of personal initiative, you would be an expert user by now. Anyone here who wastes their time assisting you in the future is unaware that you use people and suck them dry without giving anything back.

I thought my earlier comments a few weeks back would be enough for you to see how many people here perceive you and perhaps you would realize that you needed to approach things differently, but there has no change in your behavior. Some people are givers and some are takers. You are most definitely the latter.

Mark

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

So what? Why waste time on something until I have a reason to use it? I don’t have enough time for the other things in my life, that I need to do/know.

That really makes me very angry because you apparently had plenty of time and no issues posting hundreds of questions and responses in this thread, wasting hundreds of hours of our time and goodwill trying to teach you everything you need to know. You are so incredibly self absorbed that you clearly don’t even realize it.

Mark

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

You are taking me into a world that I have completely forgotten

This is where printing comes in useful. When you have beautiful prints on your walls, it is a daily reminder and inspiration.

@mikemyers

When it became available, I thought digital was for kids

Well, yes and no. Certainly a 6Mpx image is hardly professional level nowadays but even then, a 35mm negative could only be scanned and printed to about the same size before the grain became as obvious as the pixels.

Which is one of the reasons why we turned to LF and photography, which kept us in touch with film and all the accompanying techniques, which we then adapted to digital images and, as we have climbed to the dizzying heights of a 45Mpx camera, we now no longer need our 6cm x 7cm cameras as we get almost the same resolution as scanning film.

Digital photography is no longer “a toy”. It is capable of producing prints that are every bit the equal to film. But, what we have done, and you need to do, is to acquaint ourselves with the digital tools that are available instead of darkroom tools. However, there is a strong crossover in techniques that need to be adapted, not thrown out.

As Mark has pointed out, you do seem to be relying on others in this group rather than experimenting yourself. You need to familiarise yourself with PL’s tools by experimenting, not simply asking at every hurdle. There are plenty of tutorials and videos out there, which is where most people start. But, most of all, you need to participate by starting to find techniques and tricks that will help others. Teaching something that you have just learned is one of the best ways I know of consolidating knowledge.

@mikemyers

If I were ever to get serious about that world again…

And there I believe you my have put your finger on the problem - you have not been taking your photography seriously enough. Most of the images you have shared have not been thought out and, thus, you are scrambling to find out which tools to use to fix up the mess, trying to make a proverbial silk purse out of your multitudinous pigs’ ears.

Sure, you can continue to waste electrons, shooting at anything and everything that you happen across but, unless you start focusing on creating better images in camera, to give yourself a better chance of being able to use PL to the level it is capable of attaining.

@mikemyers

I guess my D780 is good enough, if I got good enough

It is perfectly good enough. But you need to get more serious about your photography.

@mikemyers

And if I were to do that, then you are so right - I would need to understand all the little details of image capture and editing

With the accent on image capture - composition, framing, exposure, depth of field control, etc.

A modern digital camera like your D780 is not a toy and, although you can set it to auto and just snap away, where’s the fun in that if you can never get a decent print out of any of it?

@mikemyers

(…but if I ever did get that good, and I had them print up some mural-size images I can easily see how that would be useful for work that I do in India, but I have no idea what I would do with those huge prints here at home.)

Whoah! Might I suggest you take things a step at a time rather than galloping to such a grand goal in one step?

I gather most of the large prints that have been used in India are primarily for advertising and printed to be viewed at some distance - in which case, accuracy and resolution is not as much of an issue. What I am talking about is printing something like a 24"x16" for one of your walls at home as a training exercise and to encourage yourself every time you look at it.

Start by making pictures rather than just taking them. share them on somewhere like Cambridge in Colour and get feedback from there. You don’t need to be perfect in your treatment skills to start with, folks there will, no doubt, comment and you can then start learning how to improve. But more important, whether it is worthwhile taking the image any further than the trash.

I know you think you only want to post images on the internet or to send to friends but, if you want to improve, there is absolutely nothing that focuses the mind more than wanting to make a print.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@mikemyers

For what I need, why should I care about the database, and why should I spend my time understanding PL ?

That’s the answer why your friend couldn’t find the images in the project.
They are only selected but not copied in a project folder.
Loose the database by corruption and all your projects are gone too if you not backup this database every time you change a project.

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

You don’t export to a project. It is time for you to learn how to use a feature before making incorrect assumptions about what it is for and how it works.

I think you’re being silly - did you read what I actually wrote here?

@mikemyers

I have no idea why he thought he had to export those images to a “Project”. Maybe all of you do this?

I make more than my share of screw-ups in what I write already. I guess now I’m guilty of saying what someone else thought?

There are so, so, so many things that I do want to lear more about in PhotoLab.
There are so, so, so many things that will help me improve my image processing.
There are also features that I no longer want to use, such as Nik.
(I abandoned my free version of Nik long before DxO bought it.)

@mwsilvers

I thought my earlier comments a few weeks back would be enough for you to see how many people here perceive you and perhaps you would realize that you needed to approach things differently, but there has no change in your behavior. Some people are givers and some are takers. You are most definitely the latter.

Realistically speaking, I agree. But your time wasn’t wasted, as I learned a lot from it. It also ought to be obvious now that I don’t feel I’m wasting anyone’s time asking these questions, as I suspect a lot of people other than me are learning new things at the same time.

Perhaps you never considered the chance that I’m not smart enough to understand some of these things and concepts, no matter you go on about them? After struggling forever, I gave up any hope of “understanding” calculus and analytic geometry. Sadly.

But you can maybe smile that while there things about PhotoLab that feel above my level, there are many other things about PL, and about my cameras, and about photography that I did learn, and which became helpful

But for you, and especially @Joanna, my camera would be in a default mode of “P”, rather than “M”.

Between all of you, and also PhotoJoseph, PhotoLab has become more powerful and enjoyable regarding the things I do want to do with it. I even put away all my cameras except the D780.

Bottom line, I will still thank you for your efforts, even if I’m not as good a student as you wish I was. Maybe I increased my ability from a score of 40, to perhaps 70. Apparently you are all above 90.

@mwsilvers

Again you are being completely clueless and not understanding what I’m saying.

I dunno. I do think I understand what you are saying, but I think it’s beyond my ability to “do”.

And to reply, instead of being upset about what I did not learn, you might consider feeling better about what I did learn.

I may stink at “artistic” photography, but for my whole life up until now, that is not what I wanted to do with photography. Most of me thinks, sees, feels, and reacts to the world in terms of “photojournalism” I guess, and I guess I failed totally at trying to be more “artistic”. The tools in PL that can make a photo more “beautiful” go against what I’ve wanted to do for as long as I’ve been taking photographs - record the world around me. But most of you already are aware of this. And finally, to me, PhotoLab is simply an “image editor”, and it is more powerful, and more enjoyable, and more logical, to me, than my previous choices.

@mwsilvers

if you had the slightest bit of personal initiative, you would be an expert user by now.

So you think my goal with PhotoLab is to become an “expert user”?

Anything is easy to do, once you know how to do it.

[mikemyers]

@OXiDant

That’s the answer why your friend couldn’t find the images in the project.
They are only selected but not copied in a project folder.
Loose the database by corruption and all your projects are gone too if you not backup this database every time you change a project.

Two quick thoughts.
First, I will pass this on to my friend, not that I expect he will understand it. He thinks what he did was the right way to do it. Oh well. At least he is pleased at the results he got from PhotoLab, compared to Lightroom.

Second, thanks for the warning. One more reason I will never even consider using “Projects”.

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

you apparently had plenty of time and no issues posting hundreds of questions and responses in this thread, wasting hundreds of hours of our time and goodwill trying to teach you everything you need to know. You are so incredibly self absorbed that you clearly don’t even realize it.

If that’s the way you feel, I apologize to you. I’ve never thought of forums as “wasting time”, as to me, they are enjoyable. I guess I’m missing the point, or was, but regardless, since you feel it was a waste of your time, I am apologizing.

I guess I can understand your point of view - “forums” are perhaps one of the largest “wasters” of my time, now that I think of how much time I’ve spent in them, but to me, they are far less “wasteful” compared to watching TV or sporting events. If this was a school, I guess I just “flunked out”. I’m sorry you feel that way. To me, forums are like a photography club, but digitized. This forum, having been named “Off-Topic”, what is your reason for continuing to visit and post? Perhaps I’m “hopeless”, but in many ways, I have benefitted, a lot, from being here, and learning how others do things, and think, and why.

Even if you’re disappointed that I didn’t learn “enough”, I am very appreciative for what I did learn.

[eriepa (WIN11, PL8, FP7, VP4, NIK1)]

@mwsilvers

@mikemyers

So what? Why waste time on something until I have a reason to use it? I don’t have enough time for the other things in my life, that I need to do/know.

That really makes me very angry because you apparently had plenty of time and no issues posting hundreds of questions and responses in this thread, wasting hundreds of hours of our time and goodwill trying to teach you everything you need to know. You are so incredibly self absorbed that you clearly don’t even realize it.

Mark

Mark – you’ve made your views very clear (to me at least). At this point, wouldn’t it be better to just stop responding?

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

That really makes me very angry because you apparently had plenty of time and no issues posting hundreds of questions and responses in this thread, wasting hundreds of hours of our time and goodwill trying to teach you everything you need to know. You are so incredibly self absorbed that you clearly don’t even realize it.

Until recently, I did sort out all the advice I was given, and learned how to use those tools. Maybe it took me longer than it should have, but I’m still editing all my photos in PhotoLab, and I am getting results I am satisfied with, and like.

There are things in PhotoLab which I don’t use, and tools I have no need for, such as “projects”.

I feel you are being unfair in saying I never learned anything, but I mostly concentrated on those things I wanted to use. I have no desire to switch to a different editor.

You may be unhappy with me, along with others, but the people at DxO asked me to get involved with them. I’m certainly in no way upset about what I’ve learned here, as it has allowed me to edit my images much better than my other editors. I’m not sure what it is that I said or did that got you and others upset, other than my being very “slow”.

However “frustrated” I may have been with PhotoLab, I’m much more frustrated about DaVinci Resolve Video Editor, which I have to learn before my next trip to India well enough to teach others how to use it. Meanwhile, I don’t understand how you or anyone can be frustrated at what I’ve learned here (or not) because I’m now using almost all of those tools and “how-to”.

[mikemyers]

@eriepa

Mark – you’ve made your views very clear (to me at least). At this point, wouldn’t it be better to just stop responding?

Probably a good idea, as when anyone posts anything to me, I always respond. Why are we even talking about how much or how little I learned here? That’s a silly topic.

Anyway, I AM NOW APOLOGIZING TO ANYONE WHO IS NOW UPSET, ANNOYED, SEETHING AT ME FOR ANY REASON WHATEVER.

If anyone wants to continue any of the above discussions, since I have enjoyed them a lot, along with learning from them, I will gladly continue.

There’s too much “good stuff” going on, to let the “bad stuff” drag me down.

If I get stuck on something, and can’t figure it out, I’ll likely ask about it here. There is too much “good stuff” in this topic to allow the “bad stuff” to overwhelm it.

Thanks,

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@eriepa

Mark – you’ve made your views very clear (to me at least). At this point, wouldn’t it be better to just stop responding?

You are absolutely correct. I have clearly made my point and will post no more on the subject. Mike will never get it and he will never change. Apologies to you and others over my rant. I was just tired of a couple of years of wasted effort and feeling used by him. I will ignore his posts going forward.

Regards,
Mark

[mikemyers]

@mwsilvers

Mike will never get it and he will never change.

Mike has made it through PL3, PL4, PL5, and now PL6, and is currently doing all his image editing in exclusively in PhotoLab.

I don’t know specifically what it even “is” that I don’t get. I’ve already gotten more than I had in Lightroom and DarkTable. Instead of being upset at whatever you are referring to that I didn’t “get”, perhaps you should reconsider all those things I did “get”.

If anyone cares please tell me, exactly what is it that I didn’t “get”.
What you consider “wasted effort” I call “useful advice”, the overwhelming majority of which I did learn.

I’ve long since lost track of what it is that you now consider “wasted effort”. Was it my lack of ability to do “art” instead of “photojournalism”? I guess I’ll never find out, but I’m curious about what I wrote here that bothers others? If it’s that I’m a slow learner, that I can understand.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

The World of Master Printers - An ILFORD Inspires Film

The point is, you need to either be skilled in preparing images for printing, or find someone who is. It’s sometimes a collaboration that is needed to perfect the photographer’s vision - a mixture of the artistic eye and the technical hand.

You’ve brought back a lot of memories. I was a kid when I bought this, along with a special negative holder for 35mm film:

I remember using the different paper contrast grades, and tilting the easel to correct perspective issues. I started with 8x10, them moved up to 11x14, and finally got trays for 16x20. Chemicals were off the shelf. Negatives came from my Contax IIa, then my Nikon SP, and eventually my Leica M2, but by then I was almost always shooting in B&W. I took everything to Michigan with me when I went to college. It was all great fun. I loved the machine, and all the adjustments, and the prints were good enough for what I used to do, but I was pretty rough at dodging and burning in.

I bought all the other gear too, but have sold everything except my dry mounting press. I always wanted a dedicated darkroom, but never had the space. I still have some of my printed images, 8x19. Other than having said I am not going to post any of my images, I would scan one, and post it here, with no editing.

To be honest, it gave me more of a feeling of “satisfaction” than digital has.

Back then, my “internet” (photography magazines) were full of tips on how to do better. My biggest frustration back then was “dust”.

If I remember correctly, you still have your darkroom setup, but when you need huge mural-size prints, you have a lab do that.

Doing things with my “hands” was more satisfying than what I now do with my computer, but it was 99.9% B&W. My one attempt at color, using “Cibachrome” created three or four small images, and a huge amount of frustration.

I wouldn’t say I was “skilled”, just adequate. But I was a kid, with no budget, and no ability to work with others. In school, I had the Photography Class darkroom, but I preferred to work at home.

[mikemyers]

I’ve been here since PhotoLab 3.

I wonder if anyone posting here now remembers the first post in this topic:

During the past four versions of PhotoLab, I’ve had questions that related to the use of PhotoLab, but which could easily be called off-topic. This thread is being deliberately started as OFF-TOPIC, as while these discussions were mostly about how to get the most out of PhotoLab, many of the questions and comments were mostly about photography in general - cameras, techniques, presentation - with the common thread being they were all being edited using some version of DxO PhotoLab.

Posting a photo here is highly recommended - one picture being worth a thousand words. How to get the most out of these pictures is the goal of this topic. For anyone posting an image here, please expect others to reply with their views, which may be complimentary, or negative. Speaking for myself, I may or may not agree with comments/responses, but I always learn (often a lot) when people suggest ways they think the image could have been improved.

The common goal is how to get the most out of PhotoLab, which starts before an image is even captured, long before the editing. It would help if people posting an image in this thread would say something about what they were thinking when they took the photo, and what they were hoping to show others. It would also be helpful to try to explain what someone tried to do with PhotoLab, and needed help on how to do it better.

This thread is for new “off-topic” questions or discussions that don’t fit into the existing discussions.

Many people posted, for many reasons. In terms of learning PhotoLab better, I learned the most from @Joanna, who I think is a wonderful teacher.

Regarding the last few comments, I think they are rather silly. Contrary to what’s being posted about me, I now use PhotoLab exclusively for photo editing, using the tools I wish to use, of which there are more every year. I certainly failed at being the type of photographer several people thought would be good for me, as I eat, breathe, and feel like a “photojournalist” and it is difficult for me to break out of that mold, and even more difficult to do it well.

I’m being told that I don’t “get it”. And also that some people wasted their time trying to teach me. They are probably correct as there is a lot of stuff I “don’t get”, and the thread was not intended to be “teach Mike PhotoLab”.

Those recent posts are silly, as between the DxO help, Joanna, and all these discussions, I think I now know much of PhotoLab well enough to do whatever it is I need/want to do. In retrospect, I agree, I posted much too much, and posted far too many images. I also spent many hours doing, and re-doing, photos edited with the new (to me) capabilities of PhotoLab. This forum started to feel (to me) like a “club house”.

All good things come to an end, but to me, these discussions have been a wonderful way to discuss “photography” in general, and “PhotoLab” in particular.

Have you wasted your time here?
Have I wasted my time here?

The statistics imply otherwise, and the posts (in general) and Joanna’s posts (in particular) I found very educational. Some I found useful, and others were about things I’m not interested in.

…and if some of you disagree with things I’ve written, maybe I was right, maybe I was wrong, but that moment in time, for better or worse, that’s what I thought.

Thank you.

[mikemyers]

I doubt that anyone here has an answer, but of all the software available for capturing RAW images on an iPhone, does DxO Photolab work with any of them?

Backup question - if I change the EXIF data on a raw image from an iPhone, would PhotoLab work with that image just as it does with my Leica M8 (after changing the EXIF data to something acceptable to PhotoLab)?

I don’t expect a useful reply, but who knows - maybe someone has found a way to do this.

[stuck (Canon, PL7+FP7+VP3 on Win 10 + GTX 1050ti)]

@mikemyers

I doubt that anyone here has an answer, but of all the software available for capturing RAW images on an iPhone, does DxO Photolab work with any of them?

This is a question for a new topic, not yet another extension to this monster topic. I think it’s also a question that has been answered but I’ve not done a search.

@mikemyers

if I change the EXIF data on a raw image from an iPhone, would PhotoLab work with that image

This is another question for a new topic, not yet another extension to this monster topic. I’m pretty sure this question has also been asked and answered more than once.

Do these searches yourself.

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@stuck

@mikemyers

I doubt that anyone here has an answer, but of all the software available for capturing RAW images on an iPhone, does DxO Photolab work with any of them?

This is a question for a new topic, not yet another extension to this monster topic. I think it’s also a question that has been answered but I’ve not done a search.

This topic has been raised dozens of times. A quick search should find some of the more recent ones.

Mark