Not a good argument, Mr. Strawman. Try harder.
It was not a joke/an argument: I have a friend who like you that was not fan of new automated tools: she went into argentic and really loves it. Of course this is less efficient and more time consuming but this match her passion of photography and she don’t regret it.
With your expressed points of view, you should give it a try - especially as this AI tools you seems to hate will very likely be more and more present everywhere at some point and will change the way of working.
Btw, calling out an informal fallacy when you are trolling us from the start with a bingo of them … 
You don’t understand at all. I’m not against automation or tools like what we often refer to as AI, I use it all the time. I’m against the cult of AI by people who don’t have a clue of what it is and what is not, or understand the consequences of what they are advocating. I’m also against factually wrong arguments, like this concept of productivity. As I’ve pointed out before, efficiency and effectiveness are not the same thing. One cannot use absolutes to describe relatives.
AI is not end goal, as some people seem to argue, its a tool and its not the only or correct tool for every job. Nor will it ever can be or should be. Hence the difference between absolute and relative. Do I need to spell it out for you again, or can you catch up?
We agree on the fact that AI is a tool.
However what you don’t understand, is that these AI tools like AI powered masking, are already on the market, and provides both better efficiency and effectiveness compared to the masking tools of Photolab.
This may not be your needs or your cup of tea, but as a professional doing social events photography this is a must have - and the main reason myself and my competitors who were using Photolab left for Capture One/Lightroom.
To be more explicit, in my case these tools made my processing/working time to decrease by about 20%, and in addition improved the quality of produces image thanks to more accurate masking (because I cannot do a very fine masking on all 500+ pictures of every client - it would take ages).
In term of business this is huge. And in term of liking what I do it is the same, because drawing masks was not my favorite part.
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Masking yes. But what do you need such masks for in a program like PhotoLab, is what I asked? Its not a compositing software. Precise isolation of subject is not an advantage. Its about tone and color selections for which we have tools. If you want precise masking other than very few special cases, its largely something reserved for compositing not color and tone adjustments, and rarely if ever needed in actual conversion of raw files to whatever format will be used for later in dedicated applications.
For whose who are looking for batch processing with minimal or no human interactions, than use tools that are dedicated for that. PhotoLab was never meant to be used for such workflows nor should it be for the simple fact that it was always about technical quality of outputted conversion which it does well and utilizes AI for that better than competition. And set of tools it offers are more than enough for any reasonable type adjustments very quickly for anyone who is not so stubborn of incompetent that cannot even use color picker. lol
I can process a wedding as fast as I can in Capture One or Lightroom, but I can’t process an archival image as well with Capture one or Lightroom because they don’t produce same quality outcome, because they have focused on other type features. The lens correction is not as good, demoseicing and noise reduction is not as good, both of which are AI assisted by the way.
Than what is the complaint about? Use the tool you need for the job you need it for. I don’t use PhotoLab for compositing or video editing, I use the tools that are made for it. Should I complain PhotoLab is not video editor? Of course not.
Matter of need, again. there are ways to work fast in PhotoLab, its not the tools that are the limit its the skills, but not everyone wants or needs to be an assembly line of batch processing. That is not productive for some. Its counterproductive for I would think obvious reasons.
One does not need masks for everything, most tools in PhotoLab are context sensitive and can be easily used to adjust just about anything one would reasonable want from a RAW image. But I guess skill is not feature one can sell to people. One has to earn it.
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Well, marketing put Photolab on front of competitors software that does composition and get this kind of functions, so we asked for our need of this feature …
Even the main page of DXO website says about Photolab:
Citation
The most advanced, end-to-end, RAW photo editing software
If DXO want Photolab to be focused on denoiser and lens correction, then fine. Topaz for instance is focused on denoiser software and this is totally fine.
But again, Topaz don’t market themselves as a RAW end-to-end photo editing software.
This is kind of the problem there: if we see Photolab has a competitor of Lighroom/C1 and so on: it was an option 3-4 years, it is no longer for various use cases.
If we see it as a software as one of a kind, then good for them if the market is fine with that, but they need to change their marketing and presentation of Photolab.
Again, DXO will do whatever they want for the future and about these requests.
We gave our input about our needs.
Now we are multiple users to remove DXO tools from our flow because they are no longer needed.
And if they don’t provide tools for us, be it: we won’t buy any new version of DXO softwares and will stick to C1/lightroom∕other competitors, it is as simple as that
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If you are going to apply marketing messaging of these companies at face value, than you have to apply it equally to all companies. Topaz for example releases beta or pre beta products as final products, even if they are unfinished buggy mess. I know, I’m on forums there as well. So that marketing does not hold up either. Adobe is pushing work garbage with rainbow flags still as part of their logo and that certainly helps my editing needs. Right? Capture one was just both off buy some woke bankers who push for DEI and ESG instead of what editors want or need. So are you sure you want to play this marketing game?
I beg the differ. I see PhotoLab being the only one pushing towards proper photography needs, and Capture one and Adobe as I’ve mentioned are clearly not interested in actual creative users, they are wall street companies masquerading as creative software companies.
Just saw and article about that: Adobe's CEO is Just Not on the Same Wavelength as Artists | PetaPixel
Adobe in fact won’t even let you own the software, you can only rent it. How is that good for my editing or needs? So by default Adobe is not a competitor to PhotoLab because they don’t even exist on the same planet. One is pay for software and the other is pay for right to lease it. Good luck with your subscription service.
Where you so active on Adobe forums when they were bleeding users or Capture one forums as well, or do you only care about your own needs? Do I need to remind you how much Adobe is hated or what?
Good luck. I won’t lose sleep over it. And I’m sure the feeling is mutual on the other side. Where people will stick to non Adobe / C1 software because its something you actually buy and you are not paying for the privelage of being lectured by woke garbage companies. Thank you very much.
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ok, understood, I will drop out of DXO forums.
Whatever, there is no point to talk with people pretending to be know photography needs better than anyone else, despite whole professional market going for different needs.
Even worse when this comes to using woke keyword or talking about rainbow flags…
What you are doing is confession by projection. You are correct. There is no point talking to you. Two monologues don’t make a dialog. So you go your AI woke way and I’ll go mine.
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Well, the ones using Capture One needs Capture One and not me! … and they do it in order to be I almost total control of their processes which they for example is not with for example the hopelessly unprecise color picker in the Color Wheel just to take one example - there are many more I´m afraid.
As long as I remember (say from 2005 when I bought my first DSLR) I have been fascinated of the never ending debate (almost always initiated by purist nature photographers) between these purists always talking about “the Picture” with “a capital P” as something opposed to people who have discussed photo tech - cameras lenses and more rarely postprocessing. It is no end to that!
The sad though is that these purists seem to have got totally stuck and lost it, because over time and especially over the last two or three years, we have got a mirrorless camera tech in place that really have changed it all - even philosophically.
In order to improve my timing and in order to be much better able to totally focus on “the Picture” with “a capital P” instead of being disturbed by having to focus on my cameras physical user interface instead of composing and taking that “Picture”, I realized that I really had to activate all the new tech features I know. Because that is really the only way to get free to do that.
I started to do that with my Sony A7 III. It was not perfectly equipped for that - but almost. It had got a smart hierarchical AF and the since a few years implemented Auto ISO Minimum Shutter Speed, that was enough smart to relive me from thinking too much of selecting an enough fast shutter speed to avoid camera shake blur. This system will always as a starting point setting the shutter speed to 1/focal length of the actual lens used or selected if you have a zoom. Both these settings can easily be overridden and that is mostly the case you use these AF-functions.
When I later bought my A7 IV which is my main camera since a couple of years these functions (especially the AF-system) has been refined almost to perfection, since they are so good and are so easy to use. I rarely misses any pictures I really want to catch these days and that is a big difference to how it was before.
Since I really know now by a long experience how to use this to the max and also how and when to override it quickly and effective if necessary I am usually very relaxed now when things happen quickly. Because the only thing whatsoever I´m thinking of these days is composing and timing. That is a very big difference compared to how my photography used to “happen” before.
So in fact, today its often these purists that used to talk with big and carefully outspoken words about “the Picture” with “a capital P” with supervisor-like mastery to these stupid camera tech geeks that totally had missed the essence of photography while lost there in all their tech.
The purists often despise these tech centered guys so full heartedly because they believe they totally have missed the idea of why owning a camera in the first place. …BUT, in my opinion it is often these purists trying not to miss the moment while desperately trying to set the camera ready for action in just that exposure moment, that totally have lost all the sence of what setting the timing really demands of a photographer and I´m pretty sure the tech open guys comes home with a lot of more keepers than the purists.
For me, I think this totally “estranged from the world” photographers just are doing it a little bit too complicated for themselves when deliberately “dumbing down” their modern cameras if their real intention is to get home with these pictures. My view is to use whatever camera tech there is in my cameras to secure that RAW-data.
I wonder what is the value of you as a person, when all can be automated. Why would anyone need you, when they can just use Capture One?
First you have to distinguish between AI-generated and AI-assisted - and you don´t and that is the main reason why you get lost in a discussion like this. What Capture One do for me and many more advanced users that use these tools is that it let us focus on what we want to express with our pictures instead of why we can´t do it with Photolab. With Photolab we sadly often realize the precision tools we need are not there and what then happens with me, is that I get disturbed in my creation process when I struggle with doing it with tools that are made for something else than the task I´m standing in front of to solve.
I have met quite a few hardcore purists during the years and most of them have rarely missed an opportunity to slander the tech centered guys but I have rarely seen the opposit and the more and louder they scream the more they seem to get ignored.
I just don´t understand the aversion for AI-supported tools like AI-Select in Capture One that has revolutionized masking and precision editing in CO. RAW-convderters like CO and Lightroom are just getting the same kind of tools Photoshop have got the last years. For some purists postprocessing is no no. I think it is sad when photographers are limiting themselves and their possibilities to express themselves in the same way as religios sects use to do. The postprocessing for me is where all the magic is happening - not in the exposure moment.
Here a link to a big Swedish site called 1X.COM known for its curated quality photo art:
1x.com • In Pursuit of the Sublime
In order to create art like this you need precision tools
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Get lost in a discussion? lol On the contrary. I am making a point a man who finds color picker a challenge is having hard time following.
Yes, unprecise tools like the color picker in Photolab is a problem for a lot of users. What is the point of picking a certain blue nuance when acting on it will update not just the sky in this case but a lot of boats and some blue objects in them too?
Tell me the users who doesn´t think this is a problem. Some of these problems can´t be solved even with narrowing the selected scoop afterwords - no matter how much time you will spend fine tuning your pick. It takes precison selection in a special layer for that.
The Color Wheel doesn´t even expose such a layer for us.
I´m the one here, that wonders if YOU really have given these problems a serious thought or haven´t you even experienced these problems?? It´s just impossible to take you seriously Smithy - my mistake to do so. This is just trolling or some sort of a mental short cut Smithy and I don´t feel for acting as your lightning rod. I rest my case here on this matter.
I guess I don’t understand reasons for the argument.
None of us are pushing for “sky replacement” tools. But some tools to help harmonize a series of photo better would be very nice.
I frequently take a series of photos using natural outdoor light. But depending on the solar angle, shade, and amount of tree cover (green) I get different color casts, even with a fixed WB setting. I can use a global setting to adjust the “green” photos to match the “sunlight” photos with some color adjustments to one “green” photo, then copy this adjustment to the others. This copy/paste routine exists and expected.
But, if I want to apply a “local adjustment” to a person or object in a series of photos because the subject changed position, I cannot use the same cut/paste routine. I have to work with each photo separately to re-position this local adjustment. I recently dealt with this as a hobbyist when taking photos of my granddaughters in an outdoor setting and separately with a series of chameleon photo poses. I can see this being an issue for indoor settings with a variety of lighting conditions in the series and/or different photographers and cameras.
I would love to have a way to adaptively cut/paste a local adjustment like this across a series of photos. I can imagine it would be a boon to pros who need to do something similar for a lot more photos than mine. I haven’t tried CO recently, but the marketing video seems very interesting. This technology would seem to require some way of recognizing and separating the “objects” so the adjustment could move with the object.
Call it “intelligent”, “AI” or whatever. I don’t need “sky-replacements” but would like a way to adaptively cut/paste local adjustments that follows the objects, not just fixed to the pixel matrix.
I doubt this would be available in PL8, but sure seems like the other guys providing end-end packages are headed this way.
Oh really. You know these lot of users by name? lol Dude, try to choose what you say more carefully. If you want to be a guy who can’t use a color picker, fine. But don’t try to use anonymous random users as some kind of shield for your own inability to do basic image editing.
Yes, I know because if I have these problems, with the way this picker works by default (and you can´t set the scoop of it in advance) than everybody else have it too. … and I don´t need their names to state this fact.
This is a very simple task to empirically verify - if you want to feel free to falsify it.
Say I want to pick the blue color from the sky and just that blue nuance. Then one might think that a color picker by default would be able to do that but since the picker default scoop is so broad it will totally fail with that as you can see on the second picture where I have pulled the “Saturation”-slider to the max. As you can see that will hit each and every blue object in that picture.
If you don´t see this as a problem I doubt you are using Photolab at all for any more serious color grading precision jobs or maybe you have just failed to understand how this really works because you haven´t really pushed it hard enough to see. When you just make small subtle changes, these effects might not be so obvious that you notice them - but they still for sure affects all blueish objects in may example.
The Color Picker in the Color Wheel is definitely not anything I use for more advanced jobs and I don´t use the far better similar variant in Capture One either normally because even that is no precision tool either. There are far better tools to use for this in Capture One today.
AI Crop - A really smart brand new AI-driven tool in Capture One mainly for studio photo
Unlike Photolab that releases new features Capture One (if you have the subscription version) releases new features anytime they are ready to release. AI-Crop was released a few days ago.
AI-Crop is together with Smart Adjustments very good examples of how powerful AI can be if implemented in certain studio processes and workflows as well for wedding jobs. AI-Crop have the possibility also to really increase productivity in photo workflows used with product photo.
Both these tools are obviously aimed at the photo industry and not so much at other small scale players despite that they even are present in the common Pro-version. There is also a “Studio-version” that is even more advanced and gives even better control of the workflow.
Since functions like this has more of an “industrial” edge I´m sure we won´t see anything like it in Photolab but it is a good indicator of the differences between industry standard software and software like Photolab which is more of an enthusiast package than anything for the pros. Capture One has even the undisputed state of the art of tethering a long long time. In Photolab there is no tethering what so ever. It´s even in the name itself of the software - “Capture”
I think what we have seen of smart AI-driven productivity boosting in just the last years will really have large leverage effects on the photo industry. Professional photographers ought to study this closely because there is a lot to both learn and gain for photographers with a mindset open to take it in.
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One tight control line at rooftop level and a handful of negative control points: No need to use the picker at all in this simple example. I’ve maxed the saturation to highlight the result.
What I find frustrating with the existing toolset is if I want to locally adjust a regular feature - a window or an entire wall for example. Perhaps AI could help but a polygonal tool would suffice.
That´s a one click job with Capture One AI Select.
My point is that in Photolab the Color Wheel might look like the natural way to look for color grading tools BUT if you go there you will run into quite a lot of precision and productivity issues.
Of course, you can use Control Points to solve masking issues but even Control Points lacks detail precision. In fact they are the ultimate quick and dirty solution on the paper but you often end up exactly where you have ended up - using a lot of Control Points both positive and negative in order to solve a very simple masking problem. Compare that to one single click somewhere on the sky area. That is what I´m talking about.
Smithy has argumented him blue in order to say that he can´t see any use of AI-assisted masking. I say I goto AI Select every single time I have to add some color grading to a limited part of a picture because it targets just that single area and not a lot of other areas with similar colors.
If you have a lot of pictures to update you will very soon be aware of the disadvantages of using Control Points instead of the very efficient, precise and easy to use AI Select. Just one click or just draw a rectangle of the object you want to select - that´s all it ought to take with modern tools.
I wish people arguing without seeming to have even the slightest clue of where the AI-powered postprocessing and studio industry is standing today could at least have the decency to download a free full 30-days trial for some empiric tests before just trolling around here. Doing is a lot better than just endless talking in this case.
Control Points in Photolab is in fact the very definition of “Fuzzy masking”. The result with Control Points will never be anything else than “good enough” - for some cases and for some users… and in Davids example above, as in many other cases where a lot of positive and negative Control Points are sprinkled “en masse” over the motif, it´s not even especially effective compare to AI-assisted masking.
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Over 50 have voted for this feature request now and that is pretty good and more than I ever have seen before for any other request, so if DXO is checking the votes they ought to understand that many really want features like AI-masking in Lightroom and Capture One even in Photolab.
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@Stenis didn’t even know there was a vote feature at the top. voted +1, good luck everybody ; )
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