DxO PhotoLab and camera viewfinders

[zkarj (macOS, PLe+FP+VP, Pentax)]

Battery use is a big one I hadn’t thought of. My DSLR has a screen on the back and can do ‘Live View’ which is effectively like all mirrorless do. But I use it sparingly because:

• It can sometimes be hard to see the screen (not a problem with true EVF).
• It kills the battery super fast!

If for some reason I wanted to drain a battery as quickly as possible, I would record a video while wifi is turned on. Constant writing to the SD card, constant updating of the screen, and keeping wifi powered up would knock out the battery in very little time. Versus the 600 frames I can get in normal use.

[zkarj (macOS, PLe+FP+VP, Pentax)]

As has been stated many times on this thread, we all have different priorities, and experience.

For me, a mirrorless camera has to come a long, long way yet before I will consider giving up my 35 year old camera that has only had 6 different bodies and about a dozen different lenses.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@mikemyers

I think you meant heavier, bigger, and needs more battery,

Nope, less.
1 i have my EVF camera always off wlie walking and the turn on time is the punnishment for saving battery.
2 in stand by , on when pointed, it drains the battery less then by full active EVF al the time.
3 active then it needs to power screen EVF on, floating sensorbay, IBIS, IOS active. And if LCD is open every time i haven’t my eye on the EVF: LCD on.

A OVF camera, keeping camera on and LCD off can run for day’s.
No IBIS, no power consumption by looking through OFV.
Only flipping mirror and the cpu is draining the battery.
Turning on the LCD yes then the consumption is equal or nearly equal.

@mikemyers

This I disagree with. If “all this” results in a better image being imported into DxO PhotoLab, it’s likely that less correction will be needed, as it was done to the digital image before being imported.

Sorry, no.
That’s you who gets the bennefits not DxOPL…

In the feature camera’s in DSLR shape will be hobby enthousiast only.
And maybe the filmische kloink will be a feature those people want.Same as Optical Viewers.
Technical mirrorless is much easier to produce.
And 4K EVF and LCD seems great and easy to be produce but how much detail can you see in such small screens?
I need glasses to watch my taken images on the back LCD so i don’t often… (saves battery too.)

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

My opinion - what’s important is what it can do “now”, and for some people “old tech” is preferable to “new tech”. How long has it been since any of us picked up a pen, paper, an envelope, and a stamp, and wrote a personal letter?

Totally agreed when it comes to photographic tech as long as I can work hybrid and not have to wet print As to handwriting, mine is so dreadful, over forty years ago I attended a summer school of theology and took copious notes, only to find a week later, I couldn’t even read most of them

@mikemyers

A highly experienced photographer such as Joanna will almost always get a perfect image anyway, but I’ve already proved I might not

But you can if you stop playing around with a camera that is not suited to the subject you are photographing or using a camera to which you have an emotional attachment. If you are going to use such a camera, you have to accept that the images are never going to be as good technically, but the results can still be pleasing because of their “faults” - think of those photographers who use high ISO film because they want the golf-ball like grain.

@mikemyers

Correct, and Leica reflects light off the shutter curtain, which is then measured. None of this is needed once the image is digital, and can be fully analyzed.

I could simply not live with a digital camera, for the work that I do, that is so limited in how it measures light. I would have to carry my separate spot meter, just in case I needed an accurate reading. On the other hand, I have a lot of confidence in the metering on my Mamiya 7 II, but I have no intention of using it for colour work as I’m not sure how it would cope with the 4-5 stops range I would have to work with.

@mikemyers

(…and at the risk of making the camera FAR more complicated, maybe it could be plugged into a computer, and Joanna could pre-set all the variables to capture images just as she wants to, and store that user-profile for future use in the camera.)

Nikon has four custom settings banks but, since I almost always use the same settings anyway, I’ve never used them in all the time I have had my D100, D200 and D810.

The most complicated I ever get is using TrueDoF-Pro on my iPhone to calculate depth of field, hyperfocal distance and diffraction limits. Not necessary for LF work - there I simply bend the camera

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

But you can if you stop playing around with a camera that is not suited to the subject you are photographing or using a camera to which you have an emotional attachment. If you are going to use such a camera, you have to accept that the images are never going to be as good technically, but the results can still be pleasing

Well, when/if I decide to fully follow your advice, I will consider signing up for one of these:

Or, buy the New Leica M11 which won’t be “as good”, but with 55 megapixels and all the other improvements, will be better than my 2017 Leica.

Maybe ideas…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRQ3p_QSxy4&t=3s

Honestly though I stopped using those gigantic Nikon cameras maybe five or six years ago, and I don’t feel like getting back onto that merry-go-round again.

That reflection photo I posted last night - how much better would it have been had I (not you) taken it with the very latest Nikon?

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

Just to remind you – this is what @Joanna said

Using PhotoLab 4 to process sunset photos

If this were a tripod image, I would have set the ISO to 100 instead of 1600 and maximised the dynamic range. Instead of only 10 stops, Mike would have had 13.2 stops to play with and got much better shadow detail.

And you even put it on your ‘to do list’

• Consider using a tripod, which would allow me to use a nicer ISO speed.

Should you want (remember want, not need) a cam with an even better Dynamic Range, you may have a look for the Nikon Z 6 II – or start with what you already have.

BTW, nobody is ‘taking’ your beloved M-Leica from you, but like @Joanna said

Mike, I think you’re going to have to keep the two and choose the most appropriate for the subject are shooting

[mikemyers]

@Wolfgang

a cam with an even better Dynamic Range, you may have a look for the Nikon Z 6 II

In the small chance that I buy a new Nikon, the logical choice is the Z9, but it’s too big, too heavy, too complicated, and not what I want to carry around with me. Yep, I could get better specs from my D750, but I’m at my brother’s home on holiday, and I only brought one camera kit.

Regarding specs, my Mazda MX-5 could probably struggle to get up to 120 mph, but were I to get a Corvette, I could get maybe 200 mph? Wouldn’t be of any use to me though, as all I need is much less.

What I ought to do I guess is take the same photo with my Leica M10, and my Nikon D750, and see if there is any noticeable difference between them. Lenses will be the Nikon 50mm f/2, and the Voigtlander 50mm f/2.

Remember, I’m not making large prints, just full-size jpg images that anyone can view.

@Wolfgang

Mike, I think you’re going to have to keep the two and choose the most appropriate for the subject are shooting

I rarely know what I’ll be shooting ahead of time. Sometimes, yes, but most of the time things just “happen”.

For me, it’s usually “which camera is good enough, and most convenient for where I’m going”.

It’s also true for me that I should pick one camera and stick with it, as otherwise my mind gets all confusabobbled about which settings to use, and how.

Also, to me, photography is about much more than the technical specs. The best photographers in years past hand ‘antique equipment’, no electronics, an everything came down to the photographer’s capability, not the camera’s. To me that’s as true today as it was back then. Anyone can take a technically perfect image nowadays, just letting the camera’s computer do all the work, but it will still be a “snapshot”. Joanna’s photos are stunningly beautiful NOT because of the technical stuff, but because of Joanna.

(If I were to buy a Z9 tomorrow, I doubt my photos would be much different from what I can do today.)

[zkarj (macOS, PLe+FP+VP, Pentax)]

@mikemyers

I rarely know what I’ll be shooting ahead of time. Sometimes, yes, but most of the time things just “happen”.

This. So much this.

It is a very rare time when I go out with my camera with a very specific scene in mind. It is a rare time I am out with my camera and a scene presents itself to me and I will spend the time to consider all aspects and more time to set up the shot. Which is not to say I couldn’t sometimes spend more time on preparation in those cases. It is quite normal for me to take my camera with me because “something might present itself” yet I may end up with no pictures at all. It is very common for me to whip my camera out and be very lucky to catch something I wasn’t expecting.

For these reasons, I usually am at pains to leave my camera set up for the general context I am in (mostly choice of lens and focus mode), and I very rarely use a tripod.

90%+ of my shooting is single-focus or (or continuous-focus for birds), ISO 100-6400, f/8, and be there. I mostly stick to two lenses (55-300 or 18-135) with occasional forays on a 90mm or 50mm prime.

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

@mikemyers

In the small chance that I buy a new Nikon, the logical choice is the Z9, but it’s too big, too heavy, too complicated, and not what I want to carry around with me. Yep, I could get better specs from my D750, but I’m at my brother’s home on holiday, and I only brought one camera kit.

Mike, it’s you talking about a professional cam, that even didn’t hit the market yet.
– Just relax, enjoy your holiday and don’t write so much for now.

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

@Wolfgang

relax, enjoy your holiday and

…do use what gear you have…because a new camera will add confusion instead of photographer capability. If you have money that gets on your nerves, donate some to a veterans home, hospital, or homeless kitchen… Read your own words:

@mikemyers

The best photographers in years past hand ‘antique equipment’, no electronics, an everything came down to the photographer’s capability, not the camera’s.

for “confusabobbled”

[nwboater (Rod Mell Win10, PL6, VP, FP, NIK 5, Canon)]

@Wolfgang

Mike, … enjoy your holiday and don’t write so much for now.

But I wade through all these pages just to find another instance of his word “Confusabobbled”!
Seriously these threads that Mike is active in and many of you help him are great teaching lessons for me and I’m sure many others. So please keep on writing Mike. Oh yes, take some images too!

[mikemyers]

@Wolfgang

Mike, it’s you talking about a professional cam, that even didn’t hit the market yet.
– Just relax, enjoy your holiday and don’t write so much for now.

I agree.

@platypus

…do use what gear you have…

That is my plan (but it’s enjoyable to dream…)

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

well, I dream in bed – not online
(not sarcastic !)

[sloweddie (Ed)]

@mikemyers

What I ought to do I guess is take the same photo with my Leica M10, and my Nikon D750, and see if there is any noticeable difference between them. Lenses will be the Nikon 50mm f/2, and the Voigtlander 50mm f/2.

Remember, I’m not making large prints, just full-size jpg images that anyone can view.

Mike, if you want to go down another rabbit hole that will occupy months of your life and put more grey in your hair, your can change some things that will make visible improvements to some of your pictures.

Your digital cameras are already giving you raw files that have smoother color and a more extended tonal range than you have seen up to now. However, the sRGB color space at the end of your workflow (in your jpg files and your monitor) literally cuts out and throws away a significant amount of the visible color spectrum information that is recorded in your raw files. The result is subtle but visible damage to the fidelity of colors, especially in the pastels, and their overall smoothness.

A more extended color space that isn’t too difficult to implement throughout your workflow is Adobe98. This, too, is a near-ancient color space but it’s a good bit more extended than sRGB and much more closely approaches what can be displayed with modern non-professional technology that isn’t too financially punishing if you’re careful in your choices. And when your eyes get used to the change you will probably appreciate the differences in pictures where the improvements are visible.

The biggest $$ factor for such a change is probably the monitor; most are sRGB and cheap but there are numerous Adobe98 monitors out there that cost only a few hundred dollars more than a decent sRGB monitor (not talking about the real cheapies that are hopelessly bad on ANY kind of content). A good example is my old Dell UP2516D.

A downside is that most people can’t view Adobe98 pictures, but for sharing the files can be easily saved in 8-bit sRGB JPG with a click or two of the mouse.

Just a thought. It’s a whole other bucket of worms but if you ever get bored this is an interesting side journey.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

I dream al the time.
That i am rich,
That i don’t work but spent time on a hobby. (probably the reason i need to dream i am rich…)
The i am married with a beauti…
That i am good looking as a filmstar,
That i have skills and talents…
At night all the solutions are popping up in my head and i wake up and it’s morning… Wile my memory has bin rebooted so, back to dreaming…

[Guenterm (Win11, MAC OS, DPL 5, FP, VP, Nik4, Olympus)]

• Applies
• does not apply
• Applies
• Applies for me
• does not apply
• applies for many themes
• applies not every day but …

Thanks for the whole thread

[mikemyers]

@sloweddie

Mike, if you want to go down another rabbit hole that will occupy months of your life and put more grey in your hair

Naw, I’m tired of rabbit holes, and I don’t have enough hair left to lose even more. I do have a high-tech ASUS monitor that cost $400 maybe eight years ago but right now I’m just using my 2015 MacBook Pro 15" laptop.

@OXiDant

At night all the solutions are popping up in my head and i wake up and it’s morning… Wile my memory has bin rebooted so, back to dreaming…

Me too! If I go to sleep while trying to solve a problem, I often solve it while I’m dreaming. Or, like last night, I am off on bizarre adventures. I guess I have strange dreams. (When I was younger, I kept a pad near my bed, and the first thing I did when I woke up was to write down what my dream was about!)

@Guenterm

Thanks for the whole thread

The thread has left me thoroughly confused about things, and my solution for right now is to do nothing. I can easily see myself buying a Leica M11, and it will be 99% the same as my M10, but with better hardware and software. I don’t see myself as buying any new Nikon yet, as my D750 and Df I feel are “good enough”. No point in even thinking about “mirrorless” Nikons until I actually have one in my hands to evaluate. Bottom line - I’m not going to make any changes in the near future, although I hope PL5 will be coming along soon!

You’re welcome! …I expected the thread title to get replies like “you don’t know what you’re talking about, what does one have to do with the other???”

[JoJu (Joachim)]

@mikemyers

My opinion - what’s important is what it can do “now”, and for some people “old tech” is preferable to “new tech”. How long has it been since any of us picked up a pen, paper, an envelope, and a stamp, and wrote a personal letter?

I do that rather often, but in some countries getting stamps can become an adventure.

@mikemyers

Yes, that is a huge benefit especially for “average” people.

Meaning “but I’m not average”? Even non-average people don’t die immediately after they looked through an EVF . On the plus side, you can get blind by looking through an OVF into the sun. An EVF is just not as powerful as focused sunlight on your retina.

@mikemyers

We pretty much live in an analog world, but our new computers are transferring everything into a digital format, for use in a “digital world”.

Everything? Your letters, too? My computer only transfers what I want it to become transferred. And sometimes not even that… Why did you scan your negatives? Why didn’t you buy big packs of photographic paper, some gallons of chemicals and enlarge them, the old optical way? Why didn’t you buy a scanner with OVF? Oh, there are none? Hmm, makes one think…

@mikemyers what you in my opinion keep forgetting: photography itself is nothing what happens naturally, technical and chemical stuff was always involved and there’s no single rule existing I know of which tells you “now you learn it and once you learnt it you never do it any other way!” The “old ways” are not better because they are old, but because you had to learn a lot and do a lot of mistakes we tend to stick with it. Just because you learn how do dance Viennese waltz doesn’t mean you can just change shoes and go on with Salsa. Just because we learnt how to get a picture the chemical way, we should still invest sometimes a bit of learning time for the electrical way. Instead of defending the old ways and look for differences from old to new. Over the years I found this OVF/EVF threads becoming very boring. Why wasting the time to debate, why not just go and try out?

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, Nik6 (+3) ])]

@mikemyers

I expected the thread title to get replies like “you don’t know what you’re talking about, what does one have to do with the other???”

That’s what I’ve asking me all the time – or was it just click bait?

[mikemyers]

@JoJu

Meaning “but I’m not average”? Even non-average people don’t die immediately after they looked through an EVF

The fact that you’re actively involved in this photographic forum already means you’re not “average”. I think most “average” people forgot all about their cameras, now that their phones do it all, and the idea of sharing photographs now means sharing on social media…

@JoJu

My computer only transfers what I want it to become transferred. And sometimes not even that

What I meant, was digital was taking over. Do you still watch an analog TV, or digital? Do they still even make analog TV’s? For many people, digital phones have taken over everything - newspapers are going away, music went digital, photography went digital, email and messaging replaced hand written stuff, and social media is attempting to “own” each of us.

I used to enjoy reading my issues of Popular Photograph and Modern Photography, but now all of it is digitized. I used to enjoy skimming through the advertisements, but with digital, there is no need - the ads actually find me! I used to tune my motorcycles and cars, but now I need a specialized computer to do that.

I enjoy saying “phooey” to everything, and go out for a walk with my 70-year old Leica M3 film camera! Most of my analog “stuff” little by little got tossed out. I used to make “real food”, but nowadays my microwave is so tempting - but usually I do things the old way.

I’m 77 for another month or so, and I have fond memories of the past. I also wonder what would happen to our lives, if a giant solar flare wiped out the world’s electronics in one big flash.

@JoJu

The “old ways” are not better because they are old, but because you had to learn a lot and do a lot of mistakes we tend to stick with it.

This, I agree with, and I’m along for the ride.

@JoJu

Instead of defending the old ways and look for differences from old to new. Over the years I found this OVF/EVF threads becoming very boring. Why wasting the time to debate, why not just go and try out?

I mostly agree with you, but I am filled with “inertia”, and mostly continue on with things, although this forum and these discussions have made a huge difference in my life - for the better.