Author Topic: Again about color space (+ BUG???)  (Read 3988 times)

nesys

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Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« on: January 02, 2018, 08:40:20 pm »
Hi folks,

first of all, happy New Year :) I hope it will be fantastic for all of us.

Few days ago I've played with ColorThink and I would like to share with you my findings.

Scenario

I've worked the same RAW image (Canon 6D) with OP11, then PL, then CS6. The goal was to check the color space applied by OP and PL, because I've seen a lot of threads about the AdobeRGB internal color space applied by OP and PL, that would be definitely a constraint for me. For the records, I did the same with other 2-3 photos, results are consistent.

Results

1. the first image 2D is a RAW converted to linear DNG in PL, then converted to TIFF in CS6 using the Prophoto color space. As you can see, there are info outside the usual AdobeRGB (blue and red in particular)



2. same result using OP11 instead of PL. The blue part outside AdobeRGB seems quite similar, less info in the red area with OP11 (most likely due to very small different settings in the raw conversion)



3. quite similar converting the RAW to TIFF directly in CS6 using the Prophoto color space. The red area is similar to test 2, the blue area seems truncated considering the results of test 1 and 2 (most likely due to very small different settings in the raw conversion)



4. here I've tried with TIFF instead of linear DNG ... so RAW converted to TIFF in OP11 using a Custom ICC (Prophoto in the example). The result is exactly in the AdobeRGB color space, so it seems the Customer ICC is not considered at all. Maybe a BUG, or an issue with that particular ICC? someone from DXO can support here?



5. same of test 4, but with PL. Same result



So, if I well understand, I don't think we can say DXO uses an internal AdobeRGB color space, because of results of tests 1 and 2.

For sure there is a strange behaviour  if you export to TIFF using a custom ICC profile ... Maybe this requires further investigation.

But what I was looking for is pretty clear ... PL and OP11 are using an internal color space bigger than AdobeRGB, maybe not Prophoto, maybe not even MelissaRGB, like LR, maybe something related to the camera sensor .. but for sure big enough to don't be a constraint.

Does it make any sense?

Please share your thoughts
thanks

Andrea


Edited: corrected “aRGB” with the appropriate “AdobeRGB”. Apologies for the mistake
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:33:01 pm by nesys »

Bencsi

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 02:44:45 pm »
Hi Andrea,

 I appreciate your detailed report about the color space usage in DxO apps. In the past I never met with aRGB color space definition, but I went to Wiki to get more detailed info. According to Wiki, the aRGB  including the alpha channel info beside the 8 bit wide RGB values. Is this your determination on aRGB too ?
If yes, I'm almost sure, DxO uses only RGB values when exporting images, meanwhile the internal processing resolution is 16 bit wide.
In the past I tested also the Custom ICC profile usage in DxO apps and found same: DxO doesn't take care on custom ICC profiles. Even my test was less fruitful, the different ICC profiles ( monitor, printer, paper, camera, FOGRA, etc.) were not producing any usable image. The built in sRGB made the best image quality for normal daily use, the rest fixed AdobeRGB1998 and ProPhoto produced on monitor much worse color fidelity and printing on paper also the quality was worse. Since 2008 I use OpticsPro as a simple customer, the color profile usage part is unchanged since.

Endre
Win7/64 PC, i7-3770, 3.9GHz, 24G RAM, Intel HD-4000 GPU, 27" calibrated LG monitor 1920*1080 px res. 82 DPI

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 03:58:51 pm »
Looking at different diagrams, I think aRGB could match Adobe RGB = inner triangle. The outer triangle is some colorspace between Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB. Maybe Andrea wants to say, that although ProPhoto RGB TIFF is used as export format in PL, only something like AdobeRGB TIFF is exported? -> BUG

If this is true, then the export:

RAW ---(PL)---> DNG ---(CS6)---> ProPhoto TIFF

is superior to

RAW ---(PL)---> ProPhoto TIFF

Which should not happen.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 04:48:21 pm by Asser »

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 06:14:42 pm »
First of all, my apologies. I made a mistake. aRGB above means AdobeRGB, I will edit the post shortly.

Your point Asser is correct. The Custom profile in exporting as TIFF seems not working at all, and the result should be a reason why there are guys saying DXO (OP or PL) is using an internal AdobeRGB color space. That makes no sense, as if I use DNG as export, we see a lot of info out of the normal AdobeRGB color space.

The two triangles are AdobeRGB and Prophoto.


nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2018, 12:27:54 am »
Folks,

here you can find the same picture exported as TIFF with

AdobeRGB profile



and

sRGB profile




expected results, I can say. So, to summarise, two results of my tests:

1. the internal color space in PL (or OP) is bigger than AdobeRGB (maybe Prophoto?)

2. the export in TIFF is buggy if you use a Custom ICC profile

Some from DXO here can help us?

thanks

Andrea

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 10:43:21 am »
There was not much moderator activity since new year. So maybe they are still on vacations.
Open a ticket with a link to this thread and force a response. Would be nice, if you could post the response here afterwards.

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2018, 11:07:34 am »
Ticket #134800

I've also open a ticket to understand if PL support 10-bit color depth workflow.

We'll see.

Andrea

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 11:14:16 am »
Btw. there is a "Color Rendering" panel available, where you can set an "ICC Profile" on how to render the colors. Did you try to set the custom profile > AdobeRGB there before exporting to ProPhoto? If not, this could be the bottleneck.

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 12:35:48 pm »
Interesting.

I'm used to use the "Camera Body" category. And with "Canon 6D" as camera body, the result is exactly the same as point 5 above in my first post.

Trying with ICC Profile, I'm not able to select any ICC profile in "rendering" field.

Any luck on your side?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:03:06 pm by nesys »

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 01:11:51 pm »
I am currently not at home, so cannot look on this. But I am refering to this screenshot. Ignore the red cycles and look at the last entry instead.

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/60337295/6b801ea668444e67a6bdc98d2b0e61c3

Reading the PDF manual for this, it says that a file selection dialog should open, where you select the profile.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:16:49 pm by Asser »

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2018, 01:39:07 pm »
As you can see, no problem at all with "Camera body" option



but if you try to use a ICC profile, you are not able to select any ICC profile



Also not sure what options mean (there is no reference in the User Guide and I'm not creating an ICC profile here).... maybe Linear RAW are the "usual" profiles, and DxO Realistic means a profile created via DxO? not sure ...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:41:20 pm by nesys »

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2018, 08:05:14 pm »
I can select the profiles without problems, but I am on windows. Looks like this after that:



The problem with this settings is, that they affect, how the images are displayed on my sRGB monitor in a negative way. So this cannot be the solution. I want the colors to look good on the monitor and at the same time prevent color clipping on export. So the problem must be solved in the export anyway.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 09:38:16 pm by Asser »

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2018, 09:03:36 pm »
I will open another ticket for this bug .... any Mac user can confirm?

thanks
Andrea

nesys

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2018, 09:04:45 pm »
I can select the profiles without problems, but I am on windows. Looks like this after that:



in the meantime, if you can, please send me a tiff exported with this procedure ... and we'll see if something different happens or not.

;-)

Asser

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Re: Again about color space (+ BUG???)
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2018, 12:20:13 am »
I have tried it by myself. Set ProPhoto in both places, no chance to break out of Adobe RGB on TIFF export:


 

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